It does not seem a lot to state that during a fifteen year period we only had six men who were champions. This of course made the championship very valid indeed, during these glory years of TV wrestling, that lead up to a decline starting probably before the end of the 1960's, so much so that by 1974 key players were defecting to Brian Dixon's Promotion.
I think to have six was well managed although I would make the point that the only real champion throughout the 1930's was Douglas Clarke and the 1940's was Bert Assirati. Some would argue this and that is fair enough but in my opinion attempts to name others as champ were just dirty tricks played by different factions of multiple organisations.
Going back to my six men two stand out as one time only short reign men . They are Portz and Ian Campbell. The fact that they got their run I believe shows their quality. Portz was a hit in North America and beat Nagasaki in Stampede which was kept secret for years over here. Campbell was a showman , looked the part , great gimmick and was charismatic but not much of a wrestling background.
The other four held the title more than once. Robinson , Joyce , Wall and Gwyn Davies.
Most of us would rank Bill Robinson first of these six. My question to the forum. Do you think there was much in it between the rest. Could it be that Portz was as good as Wall. Was Campbell really any better than Bruno Elrington , Angus or Kirk. Should anyone else have got a run as champ. Should Billy have had the title much more. In 1966 there were four champs , but not Billy.....why?
Lets have some regular posters return and debate this. If we get the interest I will rank my choices 1-6 and also chose an extra champ who never made it.
I certainly agree with Ron's early comments that this is all about perceptions. All that shoot stuff doesn't come into it.
I find the following one clear measurable point: Rocky Wall is the only wrestler to have appeared more that McManus in a single year on ITV wrestling. This was 1972 and I believe he edged Mick 13-12. This is telling in terms of the promoters' hopes and expectations for the business. I think Rocky was wrestling six nights a year that year and it was all too much and he burnt out, certainly with JPs, soon after.
Don't forget how poorly Robinson was perceived for hogging the title whilst abroad. This was not good for business. This extreme televising of Wall in 1972 shows the type of active and nationwide champion that the promoters wanted. I bet he was well-rewarded?
Bruno was fairly quickly rewarded when he won the RAH Tournament in 1965, wrestling's FA Cup. I reckon this move was in parallel with Campbell's short reign, to give these two big men validity as they then fell to Wall and the rest. Bruno only became southern champion in 1971 by which time he was grey and slowing and thinning. It was his kind pension plan.
One name missing from the list is Tibor Szakacs. His byline was that he'd won the Trophy five times: maybe they thought that was enough. He must have lost a fair few championship bouts against the others?
I have to differ with those of you discussing Nagasaki: he just wasn't suitable as British Champion, you are applying too much hindsight from these times when a mask is just a superficial gimmick. A mask was so much more important Then. The good guys won titles, the baddies wore masks and got PWs. This eqiulibrium needed to be maintained. Anyway, the wrestling press milked the discussion of a Nagasaki title challemge over many years and this mini-controversy was a drawcard in itself. George E. Gillette deployed it skilfully with all his challenges.
Ranking these champions in order is a fascinating impossibility. But in terms of perceptions, Wall did it all. Robinson disappointed with his absence, and later Wall. too. disappointed by disappearing.
We don't disagree Bernard. I wouldn't rate them up at the top either. I was just trying to express (clumsily it seems) the depth of quality at that time.
Hi Hack, I like your list with Cornelius et al, BUT I would not have included Hussey( Too small and light),Hunter (too timid) or John Lees (great physique but wrestling skills?).
Good job we can agree to differ.
Although confident in naming Joyce as my number 2 I think Ron is spot on with his comments about Albert Wall. Yes Billy did have the ability and size to work well with lighter men, like one I saw with Masambula. To be fair to him name a big man Billy Joyce didn't beat? But Albert did epitomise a real proper heavyweight and was in there ready and able to beat the list of contenders Ron lists. God, weren't we blessed in those days? And Ron hasn't mentioned Joe Cornelius, Al Hayes, Jim Hussey, Bull Davis, Ray Hunter, Wayne Bridges, John Lees and a good few others not yet mentioned. And Pat Roach, of course. Ron comments on Pat's belated entry to the championship list. Quite right. When I returned to my wrestling interest via the internet about 15 years ago I was surprised to find some fans critical of Pat Roach. Another proper heavyweight.
Looking for some information on Harold Sakata I've just had a look at Ray Plunkett's results lists. I remember that for my first time going to the wrestling I had a choice between an independent show and a Joint show with Billy Robinson on it. As a ten year old I naturally chose the independent show (colourful posters, wonderful characters). Looking at Ray's lists I see I could have seen Albert Wall beat Bill Robinson and Eric Cutler beat Jim Breaks. I wouldn't have appreciated it as much as The Wildman from Borneo of course, But would no doubt enjoy seeing Masambula knock out Harry Fields.
I was a fan of the lighter weights but I always enjoyed Billy Robinson who if he was competing now he would be in UFC making millions. Albert Wall who I never saw in a dull bout. Geoff Portz who I saw a couple of times before he headed across the pond and always enjoyed him and like Wall I wondered where he had gone and was so surprised when we went to a show in Florida in the early 1980s and Geoff was on the bill. And although he didnt really wrestle as a heavyweight till the late 1970s Marty Jones carried on the legacy of both Robinson and Joyce as they both were involved in his training.
I am bang on the same ratings as Hack, my problem was splitting Joyce and Wall. Albert to me was a great fans champ and was made for beating the real big guys like Davies , Gargantua , Kirk , Angus , Elrington ,Campbell and many more.
Joyce seems to have had opponents at a lower weight to demonstrate his skills and perhaps did not travel so much as Wall. But it is unfair of me to cast an opinion as I did not see peak Billy Joyce so I will score it 1 Robinson 2= Joyce/Wall 4 Davies 5 Portz 6 Campbell
When Davies lost the championship in 1977 that ended 17 years for these guys and I do find myself wondering why Pat Roach had to wait until the mid 80's to be champ.
For me he looked the part , but I remember in his early days before he went into acting he was cast as a reluctant bad guy who could not understand why the fans were against him. After his acting debut he was ever so popular.
I was very disappointed when Albert Wall left in 1974 to join Dixon. I saw him fail to lift Crabtree after the flying headbutt and wonder if they never allowed him to beat Shirley. He limped off with a strained back and I never saw him work with Joint again.
I found it was a sad way to lose our champ.
I also think the promoters missed a trick. They never had a bad guy. Kayfabe , Kendo was of unknown race but after going to Canada they could have easily set the scene at a big venue for him to be unmasked behind a screen with two public figures/Celebs as witness and match his face against his passport to confirm he was British. Imagine the reaction.
The game was ailing and Kendo perhaps could have been the champ of the 1970's.
He had all the tools for beating the biggest and was exciting.
Hi Hack. As you know I saw Dennis Mitchell,in the early days of his career .At that time he was green,but obviously had something.
He had battles with Norman Walsh and Geoff Portz, who were the two most likely to give him a hard time at that weight.He must have known Les Kellett well because he was on with Les more often.
Unfortunately I never saw him after I left Newcastle when no doubt is the time that you mention.
The four longer term champions are the ones that stand out. Head of the bunch I would place Billy Robinson. No great surprise there. Number two I'd place Billy Joyce. In terms of technical ability I would put Joyce at his best top of the list. But Robinson was more powerful and had a greater killer instinct than his mentor. With the two men at their prime I could only see Robinson as the credible winner between the two of them. Number three would be Rocky Wall: strong, powerful, consistent throughout the fifteen year period. Fourth would be Gwyn Davies. Again, strong and powerful but I always felt Rocky would have the edge over him. Portz was a good wrestler but not really big enough to seem to be a credible champion alongside the other four. Campbell was big, but hard to see him as a champion. A very short lived champion to create a couple of big shows in champion. The man who should have been up there as champion was Dennis Mitchell. A great heavyweight who could hold his own alongside Wall and Davies. I did see Joyce against Mitchell in 1966, with Joyce the winner.
No Ron, I never saw Billy Joyce fight The Ghoul. I don't remember Billy Joyce at Newcastle either.
Ron, I was about to start a similar thread, asking why most of the Mountevans champs (especially heavyweights) were Northern wrestlers, or in some cases from elsewhere, but based in the north.
I once knew an ex Copper in Halifax, many years ago, who knew Geoff Portz, and said (from memory) that he had a security firm at one point, a bloke not to be trifled with.
Billy Robinson - if born in modern times, would be a multimillionaire UFC champion.
Agree Bernard , by the late 1960's there were more and more men coming well over six feet, some of them real heavy guys and a champ had to look believable. Portz could certainly compete and did but maybe he was just another plain man in trunks, Who knows if a leotard and fancy boots would have made the difference.
That said I am a huge Portz fan , love what he did in Stampede and believe ultimately the promoters must sense who the fans want as champ.
Ron, I know that this is off thread,but your statement that perhaps Portz needed two more inches and a stone in weight to compete with the big men. I feel the same way about Norman Walsh, because he certainly had what it took to hold the Midheavy title for so long.
I have opinions Ron. But as I am reliant on my phone and stubby fingers this week they will have to wait for the weekend. Just leave space up there for Billy Joyce.
The new forum is slightly different that you can't reply to individual posts , however we can work round that. Appreciate your comments Bernard and may yet be asking tou about 1950's champs.
Sorry to mislead Phil Kenyon as I mentioned the reigns of earlier champs. To clarify , the thread is about six men who actually held the title from 1960-1977 before the chain is broken.
Dave Sutherland's comments were of great interest to me because I am unsure where to rank Billy Joyce. Billy started very light in about 1939 and by 1952 had won the light heavy championship. He came good as a heavy almost 20 years after and I think hit 16 stones. He finished by coming home from Japan ill and went back to light heavy to end his career. At the time of Robinson and Wall turning pro Joyce had the beating of them. For Bill Robinson , the pendulum swung and not many would doubt he was number one. It may be that Albert Wall also passed him but I am not sure. I am not talking about it being real. I am talking about fans perception of who you pay to see and cheer as your champ. The promoters never chose heels , only hero's to wear the belt. Albert was exciting. I never say Billy Joyce at his peak. Up to the mid 1950's we had never had a champ who was even close to six feet. The big men were coming and when I was going to wrestling I seem to remember Billy Rob and Albert were over 17 stones and I think Gwyn Davies was eighteen and a half.
Portz I think held the title for less than a month in 1964. To find a bill with him on as Champ is like gold dust. Could it be that Portz needed another two inches and a stone and a bit more gimmick.
Ian Campbell only did about 7 weeks in 1966. He won in Scotland where popular and then lost it back to Billy Joyce. For me that one was about marketing. Again a bill with him as champ would be hard to find.
Until his final (3rd) reign Gwyn Davies is hard to find as champ on a bill as well. Davies started earlier in 1952 and Portz actually started in the 1940,s. If they were going to be the man it should have been clear by the time Joyce was getting on in years.
Davies was also an attraction as Welsh champ which is what they had done for years with Bill Garnon. Even Bruno Elrington was kept at bay with the Southern title.
When Bartelli unmasked it was far to late for him , again he came from 1939 and for most of that time had not been a heavy. He was pacified with the Commonwealth Belt. The promoters also must have decided never to let Mike Marino in so he got the world at Mid Heavy. I might also add that Dale Martins men seemed to be locked out of all this.Some might say Andy Robin , the man who seldom left Scotland could have been in the running , but seemingly no chance maybe because of that reason.
I have other ideas who should have made it and am still thinking about grading the six.
One last mystery is that it is thought that in December 1959 Dennis Mitchell took the title off Joyce.
Again I can't find this happening or bills with him as champ and I have found Billy Joyce billed as champ by Feb 1960. So it is possible Dennis Mitchell should make 1960-1975 or even 1977.
He was another late 1940's wrestler and the decision must have been made that he did not quite fit.
Fascinating subject the more I look at it.
Any other ideas or opinions welcome.
Hi Ron,
I think you've answered the question yourself!
My choices are:
1) Billy Robinson
2) Bert Assitati
3) Bill Joyce
4) Geoff Portz
5) Bruno Elrington
Cheers
Mike Agusta (Phil Kenyon)
Wrestling Heritage D'Orazio Award Holder
Wrestling Heritage Vic Award Holder
Wrestling Heritage Pallo Snr. Award Holder
Heavy Middleweight belt Holder
Heritage Starr Award Holder
Love him or loath him but Billy Joyce was a worthy champion for all those years. There was nothing ostentatious or outlandish about him in the ring and you would pass him unnoticed in the street but he possessed the skill, the craft and determination (not to mention a few sly and not so sly tricks) to defeat even the top echelon of impressive heavyweights around at that time. Billy Robinson wrestled abroad quite a bit during the time when Joyce's successor was being mooted but it seemed obvious that he was the main challenger and he rightly took his place eventually. Leading the pack behind Billy was Albert Wall, Geoff Portz and Dennis Mitchell and you couldn't get a fag paper between them for strength, skill and experience and all three would have made deserved champions. While I admired Ian Campbell and Gwynn Davies I never looked on them as main contenders for the title; Bruno Elrington along with Jim Hussey, while possessing consummate skill were both too prone to the villainous side of wrestling to be considered in my opinion. Some of the lighter men like Johnny Allan, Norman Walsh and Billy Howes could have been in with a shout; and I didn't mention my personal favourite Francis Sullivan.
Gwyn Davies was always very impressive.Never saw some of the others
Hi Ron, I remember that Ernie Baldwin held the title for what seemed a long while in the 50's.
Portz was a nice bloke. good physique and very powerful.
But I only saw him at the beginning of his career. He was obviously going to make it.
I never saw any of the others live, so i will leave it to those better placed to play your game.
Great topic Ron. Come on guys ....