Billy Joyce and his BELT!

close up images of the BELT.

Ron, Hack, this is the Belle Vue KO I was talking about. Never seen the pic of Davies with the belt Relw gave him for winning this KO.

ruslan-pashayev

2h

Replying to

Hack

Hack, thank you, do you have any bill which speaks about the physical belt being involved in those Euro title matches under the Relw-Green company?

Belt? Don't be silly Ruslan. You know they liked to keep them hidden away,

Don't assume European matches would be Relwyskow-Green. All Joint Promotion members staged European and World title matches,

To be honest, can't see many defences.

Joyce loses title to Robinson in June 1965

Billy Joyce's European title claim goes back to a win over Jim Olivera at Belle Vue on 19th November 1960. We all know that these European and World titles were UK Joint Promotion creations and this match may well have just been a set up to give Joyce the title. I can't see any references to Olivera as champion or any connection with any lineage.

I've seen a reference by independent promoter Norman Berry in the Halifax local paper that Crabtree had beaten Joyce five times.

Hi Ruslan ;

I would say the photo is just a wrestler trying on an old belt, and one for the family album. If a wrestler wins a legitimate belt, then there will be a photo of him in the ring wearing the belt, having been presented with it by the promoter, or local Mayor etc..........like when you see Mike Marino covered in sweat after a match, with the belt, and a bunch of flowers etc........

Re: Billy Joyce`s career it was very up and down, and he was described as not a colourful wrestler, same was said about Douglas Clark.

Billy Joyce won title last year 1962 by beating Dennis Mitchell at the Imperial Ballroom, Nelson

Shirley Crabtree has beaten Billy Joyce 5 times (how embarrassing)

John Allen has beaten Billy Joyce 2 times during last 12 months i.e. Dec 1960

Thr 24th May 1962 Imperial Ballroom, Nelson Billy Joyce defends title against Ernie Kingston after match Mayor presented Joyce with the belt.

Joyce won title in 1957 lost to Portz 1964 regained it, and lost it to Albert Wall in 1966, he won it again, but lost it to Billy Robinson in Jan 1967 also held European Title for a while, also Light heavyweight champion 1949

The feud between Crabtree and Joyce was very embarrassing for wrestling, Norman Morrell and Ted Beresford challenged Crabtree through the local newspapers, saying he was avoiding their man Billy Joyce, Crabtree fired back that he had defeated Joyce 5 times, one time in front of his Halifax fans when he decisively beat Joyce, he added "how many times do I have to beat him"....he further added he would beat Morrell and Beresford on the same night

turning the dispute into a circus........

Joyce was never the European champion to my knowledge, promoters were billing matches as eliminators for various titles, or eliminators for the world title, which was all ballyhoo........

To be a champion, you have to beat the man, who beat the man, who beat the original champion..........

Crabtree`s reply to Morrell and Beresford reminded me of when people spoke about Assirati and Baldwin, and Assirati replying "I`ve beat him fifty times, how many more time`s do you want me to beat him"......

Best for now Mike Hallinan.

if this belt in fact was owned by the Relws then they likely bought it from the man of thousand belts - PETER GOTZ himself. Again it is just my guessing. No facts.

Could be the European heavyweight belt. Remember this was not a genuine European title but a British European title (seems wrestling led the way on Brexit). So Joint Promotions could stick any belt on a wrestler and call it a European title.

Ron, question for you, do you recall seeing this belt? maybe you have seen it before in some of the Greater Manchester based promotions? Thank you.

I would start in Warrington or that area.

I don't think its British title of any kind, because it is not. Photo was taken when the 60s Mount Evans belts set was already in use. So yes, I agree with you, its either Euro heavyweight, or a tourney winner belt. Again when Steve Wright had it was BRITISH OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP, looks like a name of some sort of elimination series.

Another idea Ruslan.

In May 1960 "Parade of Champion" when all the champions were presented with their belts, which led to "that photo," which we discussed previously.

Seems feasible that these were the new Mountevans belts, the ones we remember, or why else would they have a presentation?

Billy Joyce won the British heavyweight title in April, 1958, two years before the new belts. So this belt may have been used for the next two years,

EDIT: Now I've posted this I see that Ray beat me to a similar conclusion and posted these images in the That Photo topic

That photo

As far as I can see plus some guessing , after Assirati had finished with Joint , it was sorted that Baldwin would be champion again as he had been whilst Bert was in Asia. But others got a go and there was a lot of swapping.

Don't think Joyce got it until early on 1958 , but again it kept being dropped and won back. Baldwin seems to have dropped it by end of 1957.

And of course within a few years Joyce and Robinson did their shows all over the country , just a good training workout for them. There were so many title matches that we could not possibly follow them all , nor make a real lineage , many have tried.

I have no idea what happened with the European. Assirati had held it , but it seemed to have had a break here until it was convenient for Joyce to have it. It was a good script that for a while Robinson would have one belt and Joyce the other , then one of them got both , but many , many draws as well. A great seller at Belle Vue.

Very hard to make sense of it all and maybe a shortage of those quality pictures that Ruslan seeks.

I noticed recently that at one time Ernie Riley had three title fights for the light heavy championship against Billy Howes , in an obscure location , The Sankey Works Canteen in Shropshire.

I think we would be amazed at the Creative writing that went into this industry.

They could do anything , the news did not travel.

This photo certainly looks like Billy in his heavyweight days. I'm not aware of Billy winning any titles other than the British and European. What other significant ones were there?

Over the years you have uncovered a few local tournaments that the majority of fans were unaware of.

Maybe it was one of them.

Thanks for commenting dear friends. My guess is that one of the JP promoters owned this particular 1900s belt either Morell himself or Green maybe Relwyskow maybe Wright maybe Beresford? Guessing game of course. But worth trying. I thought maybe Billy Joyce won an "open to all" tourney and this belt was at stake in it. I don't think it was "just a photo with a belt" I am positive about some pro wrestling title being behind it. Let's investigate it dear friends!

Here is Ernie Riley with one.

I am sceptical that they took them home.

I think the promoters had them for Photo opportunity , but I am guessing.

We've seen time and again a wrestler in a belt doesn't mean he actually won a match for that title.

Joyce was British and European heavyweight champion and British light heavyweight champion.

As British heavyweight champion in the 1960s he used the 1960s Mountevans belt and the same again when he won the light heavyweight title.

We need a photo of the European heavyweight title.