I know I’m probably the only person on here who doesn’t know the answer to this question, but when a wrestler is referred to as a ‘shooter’ what does that actually mean?
The skills described here can all be practised these days inside a steel cage.
It remains intriguing that, in the years we discuss, shooters and rippers and the like all seemed to congregate in the staged world of professional wrestling.
I think we wrote in the editorial, when we started this site, "Sport or Spectacle", that real competitiveness had to exist for "poster inches". Fame, glory, money.
It's fascinating how it worked so well. It shouldn't really have! But lots must have got out of control. If I am right, we still haven't really made much progress in uncovering real rivalries and the real shooters running riot.
The only bout that sticks in my mind and that we can still see today is John Naylor in the Fanfare for Europe bout against Jacky Rickard.
I believe that the words (a shooter/to shoot/shooting) come from the action of "shooting" for a takedown.I don't think the distinction was quite so formal in the UK, but in the early days of pro wrestling in the US, a "shooter" usually meant somebody with legitimate amateur wrestling skills, a "hooker" was somebody skilled/knowledgeable about legitimate submissions, and a "ripper" was somebody with the skills/inclination to intentionally cause injury rather than just try to win a match/contest/fight.
Thanks Saxo. A good description of a shooter.Jackie Pallo mentioned in his book that sometimes a couple of wrestlers would try in the first round to find who the better man was.I can't imagine many "trying" against Billy Robinson when he was in his pomp.
Totally agree Bill, if you tried it on with Billy for a laugh, and you were his mate, he might see the funny side, but as basically "The Governer" when it came to real heavyweight submission wrestling, if you tried it on for real, I can imagine you going home with painful joints and a black eye.
Oh, and by the way, we should also say, that some people who did not have any real wrestling skills or knowledge, were still tough blokes who could take you out with one punch. So you really needed to be on top of your game in every aspect.
Billy Robinson came from a family of boxers, so he could box, and his family also taught him street fighting, or fighting dirty, whatever you want to call it, plus he learned real wrestling (free style) and then went to Rileys and ended up being one of the best students and exponents of catch-as-catch-can wrestling in the world.
If he was in his prime today, I have no doubt that Billy Robinson would have made a fortune fighting in UFC, he could do it all.
I wrestled as part of MMA, so as well being a black belt in Karate style fighting (TKD), I also did Jiu Jitsu, Kick Boxing and then started learning what was called "Shoot Fighting" which was the forerunner of modern MMA. We learned Boxing, Muay Thai, Freestyle, Greco-Roman and Submission Wrestling. I trained twice a week with a local club and every Saturday morning with a club 30 miles away.
The club 30 miles away had a trainer who had himself been trained by an old school Judo and Ju Jitsu bloke, who had done some training with real Catch wrestlers in the 1960's, so he knew some interesting moves that I had not seen before. He actually had trained with Bert Royal and others at a gym in Bolton, and he said they really could hurt you.
I also trained for a day (one off) with a group from London, and the main trainers went on to train the British Wrestling team for the Commonwealth games. When I was training with them, I met a lad that I sparred with, whose Dad (or maybe Uncle) had trained years ago with some catch wrestlers, at a small club where you had to be invited in, you couldn't just turn up, he showed me some particularly painful moves.
The thing about Catch-as-catch-can is that (when you know what you are doing) you are never far away from getting a hold on someone, and then cranking in a submission. When this lad showed me a Wigan style front face lock, it hurt my neck, cheek bone and upper jaw, all at once. Designed to deliver maximum pain from multiple angles and cause you to quickly give up.
When people talk about Shooters, I always think about the guys who can submission wrestle, because an Olympic Wrestler (in my opinion) would not see the submission move coming until it was too late, not trained to look for it. Or the shooter would go for the Olympic blokes wrist, and the Olympic bloke would turn away, thinking he was getting out of it, only to find he had done exactly what the submission shooter wanted, and was now in an even more painful hold.
Two blokes fighting outside a pub, one knows nothing and the other knows any form of wresting (including jacket based, like Judo) and he is the shooter, in that situation.
"Shooting" these days refers to anything being real. Originally it meant someone who could actually wrestle, rather than someone who had been taught show moves to entertain a crowd. So in that respect someone with an Olympic Freestyle or Greco Roman background, would be a shooter. Someone who learned Catch Wrestling and worked a fairground booth, and genuinely took on all comers (not just stooges planted in the audience) was a Shooter. He could really do it, when push came to shove.
During the golden age of British Wrestling, you had virtually no chance of getting into the business, if you couldn't do basic wrestling. If you read John Lister's excellent book, "Have a good week, till next week", where he interviews many of the stars of World of Sport and that era, nearly all of them have an amateur background. I think Mick McManus himself said (in "The Wrestling" I think) that he wanted to be a pro wrestler and was sent to John Ruskin Amateur Wrestling Club to learn the basics.
The Northern boys (some of them) had a different approach because they were coming from a catch-as-catch-can background, so not only could they wrestle in a freestyle or Greco-Roman style, they had the added benefit of laying in real submissions, and knowing how to evade them. So sometimes, a "Shooter" is mentioned when someone means someone who can actually submission wrestle. There is a famous story of NWA world champ (and real freestyle wrestler) Jack Brisco, getting drunk with our own Billy Robinson in a hotel room in Australia, when they were both wrestling in that country.
They ended up showing each other wrestling moves, after many beers, where Brisco would show a legit Olympic style move, and Billy would show a similar move but in the Catch style, which he always said was a more efficient style, and of course every so often, Billy would lock in a submission, just for a laugh, which Brisco had no answer, or counter to, because you don't do submissions in freestyle.
Both Shooters, in one respect, but if you asked "who was the shooter?" I would say Billy Robinson. Catch-as-catch-can trumps all other wrestling styles.
In modern times, these days, when a wrestler goes on Youtube and exposes the business, about how they used to do things, it is called a "Shoot (real) Interview".
The skills described here can all be practised these days inside a steel cage.
It remains intriguing that, in the years we discuss, shooters and rippers and the like all seemed to congregate in the staged world of professional wrestling.
I think we wrote in the editorial, when we started this site, "Sport or Spectacle", that real competitiveness had to exist for "poster inches". Fame, glory, money.
It's fascinating how it worked so well. It shouldn't really have! But lots must have got out of control. If I am right, we still haven't really made much progress in uncovering real rivalries and the real shooters running riot.
The only bout that sticks in my mind and that we can still see today is John Naylor in the Fanfare for Europe bout against Jacky Rickard.
I believe that the words (a shooter/to shoot/shooting) come from the action of "shooting" for a takedown. I don't think the distinction was quite so formal in the UK, but in the early days of pro wrestling in the US, a "shooter" usually meant somebody with legitimate amateur wrestling skills, a "hooker" was somebody skilled/knowledgeable about legitimate submissions, and a "ripper" was somebody with the skills/inclination to intentionally cause injury rather than just try to win a match/contest/fight.
Thanks Saxo. A good description of a shooter.Jackie Pallo mentioned in his book that sometimes a couple of wrestlers would try in the first round to find who the better man was.I can't imagine many "trying" against Billy Robinson when he was in his pomp.
I’ve just made a mental note never to spill Saxonwolf’s pint or try to chat up his girlfriend. 😳
Oh, and by the way, we should also say, that some people who did not have any real wrestling skills or knowledge, were still tough blokes who could take you out with one punch. So you really needed to be on top of your game in every aspect.
Billy Robinson came from a family of boxers, so he could box, and his family also taught him street fighting, or fighting dirty, whatever you want to call it, plus he learned real wrestling (free style) and then went to Rileys and ended up being one of the best students and exponents of catch-as-catch-can wrestling in the world.
If he was in his prime today, I have no doubt that Billy Robinson would have made a fortune fighting in UFC, he could do it all.
I wrestled as part of MMA, so as well being a black belt in Karate style fighting (TKD), I also did Jiu Jitsu, Kick Boxing and then started learning what was called "Shoot Fighting" which was the forerunner of modern MMA. We learned Boxing, Muay Thai, Freestyle, Greco-Roman and Submission Wrestling. I trained twice a week with a local club and every Saturday morning with a club 30 miles away.
The club 30 miles away had a trainer who had himself been trained by an old school Judo and Ju Jitsu bloke, who had done some training with real Catch wrestlers in the 1960's, so he knew some interesting moves that I had not seen before. He actually had trained with Bert Royal and others at a gym in Bolton, and he said they really could hurt you.
I also trained for a day (one off) with a group from London, and the main trainers went on to train the British Wrestling team for the Commonwealth games. When I was training with them, I met a lad that I sparred with, whose Dad (or maybe Uncle) had trained years ago with some catch wrestlers, at a small club where you had to be invited in, you couldn't just turn up, he showed me some particularly painful moves.
The thing about Catch-as-catch-can is that (when you know what you are doing) you are never far away from getting a hold on someone, and then cranking in a submission. When this lad showed me a Wigan style front face lock, it hurt my neck, cheek bone and upper jaw, all at once. Designed to deliver maximum pain from multiple angles and cause you to quickly give up.
When people talk about Shooters, I always think about the guys who can submission wrestle, because an Olympic Wrestler (in my opinion) would not see the submission move coming until it was too late, not trained to look for it. Or the shooter would go for the Olympic blokes wrist, and the Olympic bloke would turn away, thinking he was getting out of it, only to find he had done exactly what the submission shooter wanted, and was now in an even more painful hold.
Two blokes fighting outside a pub, one knows nothing and the other knows any form of wresting (including jacket based, like Judo) and he is the shooter, in that situation.
Cheers Saxonwolf. A very detailed informative and interesting answer. I get the impression you are (or used to be) a wrestler? Is that correct?
"Shooting" these days refers to anything being real. Originally it meant someone who could actually wrestle, rather than someone who had been taught show moves to entertain a crowd. So in that respect someone with an Olympic Freestyle or Greco Roman background, would be a shooter. Someone who learned Catch Wrestling and worked a fairground booth, and genuinely took on all comers (not just stooges planted in the audience) was a Shooter. He could really do it, when push came to shove.
During the golden age of British Wrestling, you had virtually no chance of getting into the business, if you couldn't do basic wrestling. If you read John Lister's excellent book, "Have a good week, till next week", where he interviews many of the stars of World of Sport and that era, nearly all of them have an amateur background. I think Mick McManus himself said (in "The Wrestling" I think) that he wanted to be a pro wrestler and was sent to John Ruskin Amateur Wrestling Club to learn the basics.
The Northern boys (some of them) had a different approach because they were coming from a catch-as-catch-can background, so not only could they wrestle in a freestyle or Greco-Roman style, they had the added benefit of laying in real submissions, and knowing how to evade them. So sometimes, a "Shooter" is mentioned when someone means someone who can actually submission wrestle. There is a famous story of NWA world champ (and real freestyle wrestler) Jack Brisco, getting drunk with our own Billy Robinson in a hotel room in Australia, when they were both wrestling in that country.
They ended up showing each other wrestling moves, after many beers, where Brisco would show a legit Olympic style move, and Billy would show a similar move but in the Catch style, which he always said was a more efficient style, and of course every so often, Billy would lock in a submission, just for a laugh, which Brisco had no answer, or counter to, because you don't do submissions in freestyle.
Both Shooters, in one respect, but if you asked "who was the shooter?" I would say Billy Robinson. Catch-as-catch-can trumps all other wrestling styles.
In modern times, these days, when a wrestler goes on Youtube and exposes the business, about how they used to do things, it is called a "Shoot (real) Interview".
I guess Kendo would be in there too along with Marty Jones, Ivan Penzecoff etc. Where’s John England? He could tell us.
JOHN !!!!!!!!!’ COME BACK!!!!!!!!
Billy Robinson who even long after he retired was training MMA fighters in submission techniques
Thanks. So, who were the Shooters? Obviously Les comes to mind, who else?
They will also generally submit or ko their opponent rather than pinning them
It means they can improvise or fight for real in the wrestling ring.