Living Greats in Age Order

Eddie Rose dob 23/03/1940 still going strong!

Thanks for the update Anglo Italian. It's important that we keep up with this. Trouble is that as more die the links to information become more difficult.

Updated today, above.

I visited with Dave Cameron on Friday.

I emailed Lee Scott's son a few weeks ago to ask how his dad was and have not received a reply.

I thought we had established Dave Finlay Senior as having been born in 1936?

Barry Douglas can, regrettably, now be removed from the list.

Perhaps this thread is the one that should be pinned.

This list unfortunately requires further updating following the demise of Jim Breaks and Dwight Ingelburgh

For Mad Mac: Dave Finlay Sr was added here a few weeks ago.

Dave Fit Finlay is now almost 66 and I believe his dad Dave Finlay senior is still alive.

Now Dave senior started in 1963 after a long amateur career and I have read in one article he was age 30.

He was married by 1957 when he and his wife went to Canada and they came back in 1961.

But another anomaly is that he says he lost an eye age 8 towards the end of the war.

So date of birth 1933 or possibly later.

I am unsure if Dave ever wrestled in England. But does that matter. Northern Ireland is UK.

Just found Dave Finlays Canada details. Born 6th April 1936.

He is one of the oldest.

The passing of Gori Ed Mangotich allows a moment to revisit this important list.

It seems clear that Dwight J Ingleburgh is now the longest living wrestler of those we all saw regularly.

I fear this list may have many sad inaccuracies.

Update of 6th November 2023 at the passing of Gori Ed Mangotich

1933 Dave Cameron - a visitor

1933 Dwight J Ingleburgh

1934 Lee Scott

1934 Don Robinson

1934 Bob Sweeney

1935 Horst Hoffman - a visitor

1935 Blackburn Roberts

1936 Linde Caulder

1936 Bob Kirkwood

1936 Sean Regan

1937 Jim Breaks

1937 Bob Anthony

1937 Tony Scarlo

1937 Alan Serjeant

1938 Brian Crabtree

1938 Brian Maxine

1939 John Cox

1939 Bobby Barnes

1939 Mark Wayne

1940 Jon Cortez

1940 Tony Costas

1940 Maurice Hunter

1940 Al Miquet

1940 Mel Stuart

We still need to investigate

Barry Douglas

Ray Fury

Al Nicol

Lou Ravelle - Unsure if he's alive but could be right up there at the top

Judo Pete Roberts

Dean Stockton - Possibly 1942

Peter Kaye

Joe Murphy

Gordon Smith

The list below is already shortening with the news about Seamus and Billy Two Rivers

We have an update on Gori Ed Mangotich, but nothing definite. He stopped going to the luncheon club he attended in Mitcham at the outbreak of Covid and has not returned. But that is true of many of the members of course, so basically we are no further on, he may well be amongst our living greats.

I have found a Business report of a company of which he was a Director (dissolved 1992) and this gives a date of birth of December, 1922 (EDIT: Should read 1932) . A ships passenger list of 1957 states a date of birth of 11th December, 1922, (EDIT; Should read 19320 which would make him older than both Max Crabtree and Sam Betts.

Another snippet I've just come across is that a witness at Edwin Reid's wedding in 1958 was a G. De Jager.

The sad news reported by BKendo of Spencer Churchill's death and Ron's discovery about Bobo Matu is shortening our list. Still no news of Gori Ed Mangotich. We do have two new entries of Mark Wayne in 1939 and Bob Sweeney in 1934.

1925 Mohammed Yakub - a visitor

1926 Syed Saif Shah - Believed to be in Pakistan. Alive according to wrestlingdata.com but then they might just not have up to date information. A problem of including overseas wrestlers.

1932 Gori Ed Mangotich - Unsure if he's alive

1933 Dave Cameron - a visitor

1933 Max Crabtree

1933 Dwight J Ingleburgh

1934 Seamus Dunleavy

1934 Lee Scott

1934 Don Robinson

1934 Bob Sweeney

1935 Billy Two Rivers - a visitor

1935 Horst Hoffman - a visitor

1935 Blackburn Roberts

1936 Linde Caulder

1936 Bob Kirkwood

1936 Sean Regan

1937 Jim Breaks

1937 Bob Anthony

1937 Tony Scarlo

1937 Alan Serjeant

1938 Brian Crabtree

1938 Brian Maxine

1939 John Cox

1939 Bobby Barnes

1939 Mark Wayne

1940 Jon Cortez

1940 Tony Costas

1940 Maurice Hunter

1940 Al Miquet

1940 Adrian Street Esq

1940 Mel Stuart

We still need to investigate

Barry Douglas

Ray Fury

Al Nicol

Lou Ravelle - Unsure if he's alive but could be right up there at the top

Judo Pete Roberts

Dean Stockton - Possibly 1942

Jim Green (The Monster) - Believed to have died

Peter Kaye

Joe Murphy

Gordon Smith

With Spencer now gone before we could ever crown him properly, we move into a Dark Age of uncertainty.

Wondering whether Bobo and Gori Ed are still alive?

Fascinating how we discuss the completed history of fifty, sixty and seventy years ago yet the tectonic plates of the present days continue to unfoot us and keep us on our toes as we strive to maintain links with those glory days.

RON HISTORYO....Time Cop,53m

I have just had an intense look at Dave Shirland/Bobo Matu of Bolton and now believe he was born David Crossman born 16th October 1932 and died 9th October 2020 under the same name. (BOLTON) Looks to me like his Grandfather was from Barbadoes and married an English woman from Rochdale. The Grandfather was a Shirland. The Crossman /Shirland link is a bit hazy and no marriage to cement this up , but Dave's mother Hannah Crossman has a Shirland link on some documents and was married at least twice. To work all this out I started with a clue from The Whose Who of Wrestling , where it was stated in 1971 that he had a wife Enid and 10 year old daughter Bernadette. Sure enough David Crossman married Enid Dolan in Bolton in 1959 and Bernadette was born 1961.

The Time Cop has done it again. Sometimes you must surprise yourself Ron.

To my mind this is an important topic and we shouldn't let it drift away until we reach a satisfactory conclusion.

We have a step forward with confirmation from Bobby Barnes that he was born in 1939. We also had a response regarding Gori Ed Mangotich from someone saying they would try and find out more. This leaves the current 1940 and earlier standings as

1925 Mohammed Yakub

1926 Syed Saif Shah - Believed to be in Pakistan. Alive according to wrestlingdata.com but then they might just not have up to date information. A problem of including overseas wrestlers.

1929 Spencer Churchill

1932 Bobo Matu - Unsure if he's alive

1932 Gori Ed Mangotich - Unsure if he's alive

1933 Dave Cameron

1933 Max Crabtree

1933 Dwight J Ingleburgh

1934 Seamus Dunleavy

1934 Lee Scott

1934 Don Robinson

1935 Billy Two Rivers

1935 Horst Hoffman

1935 Blackburn Roberts

1936 Linde Caulder

1936 Bob Kirkwood

1936 Sean Regan

1937 Jim Breaks

1937 Bob Anthony

1937 Tony Scarlo

1937 Alan Serjeant

1938 Brian Crabtree

1938 Brian Maxine

1939 John Cox

1939 Bobby Barnes

1940 Jon Cortez

1940 Tony Costas

1940 Maurice Hunter

1940 Al Miquet

1940 Adrian Street Esq

1940 Mel Stuart

Not yet known

Bobby Barnes - Ron suspects 1939

Barry Douglas

Ray Fury

Al Nicol

Lou Ravelle - Unsure if he's alive

Judo Pete Roberts

Dean Stockton

Bob Sweeney

Jim Green (The Monster) - Believed to have died

Peter Kaye

Joe Murphy

Gordon Smith

There's still a long way to go but looking at Anglo Italian's original list and other's born 1940 and earlier my latest offering is

1925 Mohammed Yakub

1926 Syed Saif Shah - Believed to be in Pakistan. Alive according to wrestlingdata.com but then they might just not have up to date information. A problem of including overseas wrestlers.

1929 Spencer Churchill

1932 Bobo Matu - Unsure if he's alive

1932 Gori Ed Mangotich - Unsure if he's alive

1933 Dave Cameron

1933 Max Crabtree

1933 Dwight J Ingleburgh

1934 Seamus Dunleavy

1934 Lee Scott

1934 Don Robinson

1935 Billy Two Rivers

1935 Horst Hoffman

1935 Blackburn Roberts

1936 Linde Caulder

1936 Bob Kirkwood

1936 Sean Regan

1937 Jim Breaks

1937 Bob Anthony

1937 Tony Scarlo

1937 Alan Serjeant

1938 Brian Crabtree

1938 Brian Maxine

1939 John Cox

1940 Jon Cortez

1940 Tony Costas

1940 Maurice Hunter

1940 Al Miquet

1940 Adrian Street Esq

1940 Mel Stuart

Not yet known

Bobby Barnes - Ron suspects 1939

Barry Douglas

Ray Fury

Al Nicol

Lou Ravelle - Unsure if he's alive

Judo Pete Roberts

Dean Stockton

Bob Sweeney

Jim Green (The Monster) - Believed to have died

Peter Kaye

Joe Murphy

Gordon Smith

Also on Anglo Italian's list

1941 Johnny Saint

1942 Roy St Clair

Some good ones sneaking in and I've checked Breaks and he is 1937.

Can't check Pete Roberts with any certainty.

Think Bobby Barnes is 1939 but can't be sure.

Judo Pete Roberts always - still - looks so young, it almost seems insulting to be considering him for this list. But you are quite right, Mad Mac, along with Maxine and Viedor and Caswell he will probably enter the listing in a support role.

Welcome back from Qatar, Hack.

You have introduced Mohammed Yakub, and good on him wherever he is! I have an idea how we can handle his non-dom status when we produce the full list at Christmas.

For now we have to get to grips with Big Bill Verna.

I think we reckoned Pete Roberts would be 80-ish two or three years ago, might he be a 1930s candidate?

I've been away for the past week hence being quiet about this.It's a worthwhile quest, but is going to take a lot of slogging if we are serious about it.

Including overseas visitors opens up a new kettle of fish, but 97 year old Mohammed Yakub (23/11/1925) looks like the front runner to me.

If we are looking for our new Father of Wrestling let's rule out visitors. Spencer Churchill looks like a good bet at the moment, but we need to do a lot more leg work.

Bob Anthony - pretty confident on 1937, but no date.

Bobby Barnes - Don't know, but one of our members does. I've asked if Bob is happy sharing this information.Can't see him beating Spencer Churchill or some of theothers.

Jim Breaks In June 2020 the Daily Mail said Breaks was 83, which would make him around 85 now. Born 1937 ish . Well, if it's in the Daily Mail what else could we want?

Jon Cortez Pretty sure he was early 1940s. He could make life easier by just telling us.

Spencer Churchill. May 1929

Brian Crabtree 1938

Max Crabtree 1933

Jimmy Devlin 7th April 1942

The fact that these have crept in makes me think there will be more 1930's men.

It's a minefield finding birthdays and then also proving they are still here.

Verna was stated to be 22 when he wrestled in September 1950 over here. Some sources state that he was born Australia but moved to Belgium in 1947

Martin, Viedor and Maxine to be expected, since we started out using our Fifties Greats, whereas these three started in the sixties.

But Bill Verna is worrying. Not on any of our lists. And no d.o.b. to see if he shades our Spencer.

Spencer not on their list 😇

Mind you, unfathomably, they include Jarvis Astaire.

Just noticed that Wiki do a World list and have Bill Verna 1929 and Caswell Martin 1932. They even creep in Veidor and Maxine to 1938.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_surviving_professional_wrestlers

Exactly, that was my intention at outset.

I think there must be more born in 1930's. No extra info on Al Nicholl yet , How about Al Miquet. How old is Boy Devlin. Would be nice to have a list of them all.

Our A to Z also cites May 1929. The reason we didn't specifically cite 4th May is because of an article by his good friend, David Gentle, giving 14th May 1929. Mistakes happen and I'd say Rons 4th May 1929 would be accurate.

Oddly The Who's Who of Wrestling, which gives birthdays, is also vague and just states May.

You are right Ron. There is a note in BMD that the 1932 Holbeach registration is a late one for 1929 and the 1929 man died in 19875. Odd though since this is a very rare combination of names there there should be two for the same year.

And 4th May 1929 is what Bernard told us yesterday. Kensington would be about right, wouldn't it.

Only one thing for it: Gori Ed Mangotich v Spencer Churchill! Surely they wrestled each other in the fifties.

I'm sure that was how he was with you, James. But at the end of a show where he had been riling the audience for 25 minutes, I guess I'd have been even more horrified if he'd been chatty and jovial with me.

Just to mix things up a bit. According to the register of Births Marriages and Deaths. there were it seems two Spencer Churchills both registered in the Holbeach registry 1929 and 1932. The 1929 Spencer died I believe in 1975. Which possibly leaves Gori Ed as the Father. By the way I spoke to him once in connection with a book and he could not have been more pleasant or helpful.

Important to sprinkle some memories into the stats here.

My Gori Ed Mangotich autograph has long gone but it stands out for me as the one I was most frightened getting. He stood there motionless and emotionless, like a Chicago hoodlum. I got it and scarpered. To this day I cannot imagine that he ever ever smiled.

You're right, Ron, we tend only to know that these guys are still alive by exclusion, in that nobody announces their passings. But that's good enough for me!

Tony Skarlo is definitely alive and well and very very lively.

Bob Kirkwood will live forever.

Looks like Spencer is the Father of Wrestling. I have often queried the validity of his name in that he started shortly after The War. But I have been assured that it's his real name. Was Winston S. so popular in 1929 that folk would name their children after him? Multiple assurances in wrestling are often a warning signal! I find it all very curious.

Hi career is interesting, we see him pitted against heavyweights, totally outweighted, and he was tiny. I have no recollection of seeing him on tv; or at the Albert Hall; or in many main bouts (a handful with McManus.) A very light worker - hence his longevity! Did he ever even appear in the north?

A lot of these old timers seemed to retire to west London: Churchill, Starr, Rann. People know them in their neighbourhoods. When they pass, the news ekes out.

Just noticed that Bob Kirkwood wrestled in 1959 and was born 1936. He is still with us isn't he , or am I wrong, A-Z has Kirkwood debut as 1960. I think he did turn pro in 1960 but was tried out at a show at the Connaught Drill Hall in Portsmouth in October 1959 by promoter Jim Smith..

Spencer Churchill 1929

Mangotich 1932

Betts (Dwight J Ingleburgh) 1933

Max Crabtree 1933

Seamus Dunleavy 1934

Two Rivers 1935

Horst Hoffman 1935

Blackburn Roberts 1935

Bob Kirkwood 1936

Tony Scarlo 1937

Brian Crabtree 1938

Can't peg Al Nicol with all the spelling but wrestled in 1954 so must be mid 1930's.

But who provides the info if these people are actually alive.

I don't know the D O B of these wrestlers without looking each one up, but Spencer Churchill was born 4/5/1929 according to some wrestling histories.

He may well be certainly one of the oldest if not the actual oldest.

Ron would know.

Yes, they are two distinct lists.

Since we lauded Joe D'Orazio as being the Father of Wrestling through his late nineties, it would be useful to have a definitive list for the ongoing line of succession. I had this in mind as date of birth is certain. Well, fairly certain, considering this is wrestling after all!

Showing earliest start date is certainly another way of looking at it. It will always have a great deal of uncertainty. But we can make up this list on the basis of what we (Ron!) know.

I'll make the two lists as possible in a couple of weeks after all comments have been made here.

We look at the history of deceased wrestlers a great deal but I do feel the history of the living is very very important.

I have a feeling that Billy Two Rivers might have had the earliest debut out of the list , but he is 2-3 years off 90 yet. Certainly have him in 1954.

Can any of that list be put anywhere near 1950-1953.

I can also find Gori Ed Mangotich in 1954, He is said to have wrestled in Canada as far back as 1948.( I think maybe 1950) Born Edwin David Reid , have we any info that confirms he is alive.

I agree with SaxonWolfe that Oldest wrestler still alive may be different to the wrestler who wrestled far enough back.

I can check out others if anyone thinks there is someone there from early 1950's.

People like Max Crabtree and Bobby Barnes Street and StClair and indeed most of them were quite late. Don't believe Peter Kaye was 1950's.

So can anyone challenge my top 2.

It might have to be two lists?

List 1 - ranked on known date of birth.

List 2 - anyone who we don't know the date of birth, but can have a reasonable stab at debut.

Someone like @RON HISTORYO....Time Cop, might be best placed to help with birth certificate tracing and he always seems to find early sightings on posters.

Sorry to burden you with this, Ron!

what about their wrestling debut? It also reinforces their 1950s credentials.