I was just reading about Finnish Wrestler, Waino Ketonen (who apparently had a hand in training Billy Riley), and it appears that Ketonen won a Lonsdale belt by beating one of the Carrol's or maybe Tom Rose. He could have also borrowed it from Peter Gotz, who appears to be in the USA at the same time as Ketonen. He claimed that the Lonsdale Belt was the legitimate World Middleweight Championship belt.
Besides Gotz Lonsdale belt...in East Lancashire other 2 wrestlers had similar looking belts, namely Bob Berry and Tom Rose. What happened to their trophies I dont know. May be they remained a family treasure or may be another local powerful promoter purchased them. Relwyskow and Arthur Wright just like Morell or Beresford were known for buying wrestling artefacts. Highly recommend threads on Gil Singh/Giant Haystack Belt, or Steve Wright Belt.
Morrell and the Relwyskows were historians of a sort, and they liked collecting old wrestling stuff.
The Lonsdale belt was used time and time again to represent different "championships".
To make things (possibly deliberately) confusing, many other wrestlers were photographed with it at the promoters office e.g. Steve Clements to use as promotional photos for overseas trips.
I think it's interesting that Peter Gotz stayed close to professional wrestling for some time, even appearing ringside at the Royal Albert Hall. A contrast to some other older wrestlers who wanted nothing to do with pro wrestling by the 50s and 60s.
@Powerlock that is a brilliant question. Thank you. According to the 1909 NSC conditions once won any Lonsdale wrestling belt becomes a property of the wrestler. Those belts (1909-10) and cups (1908) weren't a challenge trophies and didn't need to be defended. Though I think some wrestlers put it at stake in their challenge or title matches. But they totally could do that belts belonged to them. One another thing. Tourneys were annual just like for amateurs meaning title didn't change hands till next years tourney. Even if wrestler who won the tourney lost several matches after that it didn't affect his current status of the champion. Next year he had to show up defend his title in eliminations. Even if he was eliminated he still had his last year's belt. Basically belt was like a medal in modern sports.
@ruslan-pashayev that's different to the conditions of winning a Lonsdale belt outright in boxing. The boxer having won the championship had to then defend the belt successfully in the next three championship bouts to then own the belt. Looking at the tournament it would have to be four consecutive years of winning the tournament to win the belt outright if it was the same rules as boxing. That would be a stretch not just for the wrestler and promoter but also the fans as it was the same venue and potentially the same audience as it was a private members club.
@Powerlock yes very different from boxing regulations. It was usually a 5 (or 4) match eliminations series, preliminary round (if necessary, round of 16, 1/4, 1/2, final. Whole tourney lasted less than 2 weeks.
Old newspapers as old as 1700s (both online and in archives, libraries), British Library Archives of course and archives and libraries all over the UK, I spent 15 years on researching British pro wrestling history in old British newspapers. Was in correspondence with MOST of the local British libraries (esp those of London and East Lancashire, and West Yorkshire of course traditional homes of historical English pro wrestling), record offices, archives and etc. So I guess that is my answer.
I think I mentioned that before in 1908-09-10 National Sporting Club of London under the patronage of Lord Lonsdale annually held the British Open to the World Pro Wrestling (Catch-as-catch-can) Championships. In 1908 the winners received beautiful silver cups in 1909 and 1910 winners received gold plated Lonsdale Belts.
Winners of those 3 NSC KOs were:
1908
Hwt Jim Esson Scotland
Mwt Joe Carroll Wigan
Lwt Jack Carroll Wigan
1909
Hwt John Lemm Switzerland
Mwt Frank Crozier Jamaica
Lwt Tom Rose Bolton
1910
Hwt Armand Cherpillod Switzerland
Mwt Bob Berry Wigan
Lwt Peter Gotz England
In the early 1950s N. Morell purchased the Lord Lonsdale Belt from the veteran wrestler Peter Gotz. Since then that priceless wrestling belt was used many times for various championships, and weight classes.
That's about it. Bottomline - historical English title belts were still in use in British pro wrestling till late 1980s.
the lord lonsdale belts were and still are administered and controlled by the British Boxing Board of Control . Lord Lonsdale was dead by then . It may well be a different Lord Lonsdale as I cannot see the BBBC having anything to do with this, alternatively an imaginative promoter yet again.
sorry phone playing up, The belts don't look the same as the boxing belts, I have looked through the history of the Lonsdale Belt and wrestling is never mentioned, at the last count since 1909 when the first one was won there's been 161 holders across the weights, originally made from 9ct gold they were redesigned and made from sterling silver, the last outright holder of a 9ct belt was Henry Cooper. Sorry Ruslan, but wrestling is never mentioned.
So I take it there were replicas made of these wrestling belts.
I was just reading about Finnish Wrestler, Waino Ketonen (who apparently had a hand in training Billy Riley), and it appears that Ketonen won a Lonsdale belt by beating one of the Carrol's or maybe Tom Rose. He could have also borrowed it from Peter Gotz, who appears to be in the USA at the same time as Ketonen. He claimed that the Lonsdale Belt was the legitimate World Middleweight Championship belt.
Besides Gotz Lonsdale belt...in East Lancashire other 2 wrestlers had similar looking belts, namely Bob Berry and Tom Rose. What happened to their trophies I dont know. May be they remained a family treasure or may be another local powerful promoter purchased them. Relwyskow and Arthur Wright just like Morell or Beresford were known for buying wrestling artefacts. Highly recommend threads on Gil Singh/Giant Haystack Belt, or Steve Wright Belt.
"Spanner in the works accepted". Sorry Ruslan.
Morrell and the Relwyskows were historians of a sort, and they liked collecting old wrestling stuff.
The Lonsdale belt was used time and time again to represent different "championships".
To make things (possibly deliberately) confusing, many other wrestlers were photographed with it at the promoters office e.g. Steve Clements to use as promotional photos for overseas trips.
I think it's interesting that Peter Gotz stayed close to professional wrestling for some time, even appearing ringside at the Royal Albert Hall. A contrast to some other older wrestlers who wanted nothing to do with pro wrestling by the 50s and 60s.
Where it all makes sense is Morrell bought the belt off Gotz.
Morrell's partner Beresford had access to the belt.
The first photo on the thread wearing the belt was Beresford's son.
Ruslan brilliantly names the Belt winners , so there must have been six belts.
Apart from Gotz , Lancashire men Bob Berry and Tom Rose also had belts , wonder what happened to them.
It was this significance that makes the writing of the Pioneer series so good a fit to later wrestling.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ this is a very helpful web. But it's not the ONLY one there are plenty of similar online newspaper archives.
There is no mention of these tournaments in the info on the Sporting club history, can you let me know where you sourced the information.
On the photo Vic Faulkner the Holder of the Lord Lonsdale Belt.
On the photo Billy Joice the Holder of Lord Lonsdale Belt and his opponent Billy Robinson.
Dear Friends,
I think I mentioned that before in 1908-09-10 National Sporting Club of London under the patronage of Lord Lonsdale annually held the British Open to the World Pro Wrestling (Catch-as-catch-can) Championships. In 1908 the winners received beautiful silver cups in 1909 and 1910 winners received gold plated Lonsdale Belts.
Winners of those 3 NSC KOs were:
1908
Hwt Jim Esson Scotland
Mwt Joe Carroll Wigan
Lwt Jack Carroll Wigan
1909
Hwt John Lemm Switzerland
Mwt Frank Crozier Jamaica
Lwt Tom Rose Bolton
1910
Hwt Armand Cherpillod Switzerland
Mwt Bob Berry Wigan
Lwt Peter Gotz England
In the early 1950s N. Morell purchased the Lord Lonsdale Belt from the veteran wrestler Peter Gotz. Since then that priceless wrestling belt was used many times for various championships, and weight classes.
That's about it. Bottomline - historical English title belts were still in use in British pro wrestling till late 1980s.
Thanks,
Russian Concussion
another thought if such a prestigious belt , why Grantham and not one if the big venues, also who is the promoter?
I could throw a spanner in the works.
Winner Al Nicol
sorry phone playing up, The belts don't look the same as the boxing belts, I have looked through the history of the Lonsdale Belt and wrestling is never mentioned, at the last count since 1909 when the first one was won there's been 161 holders across the weights, originally made from 9ct gold they were redesigned and made from sterling silver, the last outright holder of a 9ct belt was Henry Cooper. Sorry Ruslan, but wrestling is never mentioned.
I thought Lonsdale Belts were awarded for Boxing prowess.