shoot-outs

and since "Ruslan has researched evidence otherwise" maybe this:

Catch-as-Catch-Can (E. Lancashire, England) (wrestling-titles.com)

I think maybe that Peter (Kendo) is perhaps taking after Ada and 'Gilding the Lily' somewhat. Many, many, Heritage members have recalled matches they have seen. Have any reminisced about early Kendo matches, where it was obvious he was being heavy handed, or taking advantage of a lesser skilled opponent? I don't recall any. I'm not doubting how skilled, or even how hard he was, but if you've read the books and listened to the interviews, you can see the thread of exaggeration, of stories of other workers that became the subjects story. From harmless fibs, all the way to outrageous lies, from Lou Thesz and Bruno Sammartino to Ada and Jackie, they all were guilty of hyperbole, at sometime.

Many thanks to you all and particuarly The Ost. That answers all my questions.

A shoot between pro wrestlers generally took place in a gym without paying customers. They usually lasted until one wrestler could not continue (submission, fatigue, injury). There was a referee of sorts but who's role was only to make sure the wrestlers stayed on the mats and to signal the end of the contest. This is different than a gym or locker room (or hotel room) fight, or a shoot contest in front of paying customers (a "smoker" as they were sometimes called).

As to who would win, 9 times out of 10 that is simply speculation from wrestling fans, because the wrestlers did a good job over their careers convincing you that one wrestler was tougher than another.

Great stuff, David.

But, to answer James's question, I believe it is all based on submission wrestling. Whether there was bad blood as David implies there might have been, I imagine the reply is merely "at times." In the case of real bad blood, the submission move would not be released.

I also imagine that, just as this aspect intrigues us sixty years on from the Snakepit's heyday, at the time all involved were intrigued to establish a true pecking order in that discipline. In Riley's case, that pecking order appeared in the fifties to transfer directly to determining the holders of pro wrestling titles.

In time, McManus would reason that there was only limited space for the dour likes of Joyce and Dempsey and the whole shoot thing became less significant. With wrestling being theatre, McManus would have been pleased with this shift.

The dour shooters had to adapt if they wanted to earn their wages. Some like Naylor appeared to adapt very reluctantly (.........did he ever face McManus?)

Catch wrestling was a big sport in Lancashire (from where it originated) going back to the 1800s at least. It is said to date back centuries although board member Ruslan has researched evidence otherwise. Most catch wrestling takes place down on a mat in a gym although it is possible to do it in a ring (which raises important questions about wherer Pro-style wrestling is in fact a potential legitimate sport.)

Peter Thornley was a student at Billy Riley's Gym - aka the Wigan Snakepit - in Pike Street, Wigan in the early 1960s. Riley's and its local rival Charnock's are memorably said by Catch Wrestling instructor Matt Furey to have been by this point "the only two schools in the World which taught the Real Professional Wrestling style " ie. Catch wrestling. (They weren't "schools" as such, they were sports clubs for Catch wrestling, but never mind).

Under Billy Riley's supevision, Thornley became the training partner of Billy Robinson, who basically broke down the former Judo champion in classic Wigan Snakepit style to open him up to learning. After a couple of years at Riley's Thornley had learned enough to be able to defeat the majority of other club members easily. Robinson could still beat Thornley the majority of times (and one time Thornley won, Riley put it down to Thornley relying on excessive use of force rather than skill.) Many decades later at a wrestlers' Reunion, Robinson recalled stretching the novice Thonrley and then joked that "I don't know what happened to him after that." - actually a reference to Thornley going under a mask in his professional career, but taken smugly by various enemies of Thornley in the business as some sort of expression of contempt. By the late 1960s Thornley had disappeared behind the mask of Kendo Nagasaki while Robinson was British and European Heavyweight champion. The two did have a series of matches in 1968. Robinson, something of a "Dirty Harry" antihero good guy who openly admitted to enjoying getting into dirty fights with villains and hurting opponets with submissions publicly acknowledged his friendship outside the ring with the man behind the mask of Kendo Nagasaki and praised him in quasi shoot interviews such as with The Ring magazine in 1971 (a boxing magazine which still published some wrestling articles at that point.) Robinson also tried to persuade Thonrnley not to make his pro wrestling mentor Geoff "Count Bartelli" Condliffe look so good in the ring as it was giving people the wrong impression that Condliffe was in the same league as a shooter as Thornley or even Robinson. When Thornley said that he felt he owed a debt to his mentor Condliffe, Robinson replied "You don't owe nothing to nobody, you do it on your own."

Kendo/Thornley was known to be able to handle himself in all manner of situations - on the legitimate wrestling mat, when things got wild in the ring in front of the punters, or even in fights backstage or on the road. He even managed to give the notoriously sadistic Les Kellett a bit more than he could chew. As well as being physically tough, Thornley had an upfront no nonsense temperament and put a lot of his peergroups' noses out of joint over the years. Needless to say, a lot of these people could be very bitter and recriminatory about Nagasaki. Some of this trickled out to fans who then began to question - or frankly to kneejerk-reject -Nagasaki's legitimate credentials. Other fans - such as myself - ended up getting into flaming rows with wrestlers on social media about Kendo's abilities with wrestlers who didn't want to have their hate fantasies taken away. For an example of this, see: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1127746597284636&set=t.100001393752749&type=3 The Snakepit/Riley's Gym meanwhile moved from Pike Street to Aspull in the early 1990s under the supervision of current Master of Wigan Roy Wood (formerly sometime member of the White Eagles tag team on TV in the 1960s). It succesfully branched out into teaching Olympic Freestyle champions and to continue to pass on Lancashire Catch/Submission Wrestling even as the political value of the latter in the pro wrestling business diminished. Aspull Wrestling Club, to give it its modern name, continues to host championship tournaments in Catch wrestling.

As one of the great alumni of the Gym, Peter, with his husband Loz as plus one, have often been guests of honour at these tournaments.