Hi there can anyone tell me when shoot catch matches became worked?
Thanks
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Unknown member
Aug 01, 2023
I should also add, before he does, that wrestling historian and sometime contributor to this forum Ruslan Pashayev takes the view that Lancashire wrestling competition, with its own issues of gambling scams, qualified as a form of professional wrestling.
If you haven't already got it, I would recommend Billy's own autobiography "Physical Chess", which details his life story in Wrestling. I can't recall if it mentions many shoots (as it is years since I read it) but if I remember correctly, the only wrestlers that Billy considered to be in his league were Karl Gotch and George Gordienko.
He does mention a funny story where he is in Australia and so is Jack Brisco, who was NWA World Heavyweight Champion at the time, and they are both staying in the same hotel. They are drinking beers and Billy is explaining to Jack, some of the differences of Lancashire Catch-As-Catch-Can and Olympic Freestyle/Amatuer Wrestling (not just the submission part, but different holds and counters), and so they end up in a hotel room having beer, and showing each other some moves, and they end up drunk, shirts off, wrestling around on the floor and knocking over tables and chairs and glasses.
Billy was famously sucker-punched, from behind, when drunk, by Sailor Art White, outside a hotel bar. So he told the promoter to put him up against Art White, the following evening, or he would quit the tour. The promoter agreed, and when Art White saw the match listing for that night, he left the tour, never to return.
As for when shoot matches became worked, well David has given you a great response to that, but all I would add is that it probably happened back in Greek or Roman times!
Thanks for such a great answer. Do you know if Billy Robinson had any shoot matches not including his amuter ones?
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Unknown member
Aug 01, 2023
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Probably not too many in public in the ring unless he either tried it on with someone or they tried it on with him. HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS in the gym.
We know Billy Joyce only agreed to job the European and British Heavyweight titles to Robinson in 1966-1967 once Robinson started beating him in matches at Riley's Gym.
He also scared Archie "the Stomper" Gouldie into running from the ring in Calgary in 1969 and ended up getting the title shot at NWA champion Dory Funk Jr at the '69 Calgary Stampede that should have been Gouldie's but he seems to have settled for a draw with Dory and that was the beginning of him gradually "learning how to do business". We don't know if Lou Thesz and Billy Robinson ever went at it in the gym, but if Billy could beat Thesz in a public shoot advertised as being a match for a major World Heavyweight title at stake then that would have made him legit World Heavyweight champion and would have been the peak of his career as a shooter.
He did give quite a lot of people stretchings in the ring for various reasons and in the training room (famously the Iron Sheik). He also had a dressing room set-to with Verne Gagne where Gagne got him in a front facelock (and marched him round the room and got everyone to slap Robinson's behind) but from Robinson's perspective that was a stalemate as Gagne was unable to capitalize further on the hold (and Robinson unable to break it.)
NB the word "Amateur" means Olympic Freestyle. In the early C20th the term "professional wrestling" was sometimes used to refer to full blown Catch as a legit style.
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Unknown member
Jul 31, 2023
Show wrestling is known to have existed as far back as the 1830s in circuses in France and it is speculated that it may have a lost history stretching back to time immemorial.
Catch first became a part of the pro wrestling industry as the secret weapon of carnival shooters from the 1880s onwards. Eventually it became known that there were some good resident shooters in the carnivals and interest grew in national level contests.
Prior to the 1920s, Professional Wrestling made its money from gambling scams rather than box office receipts so at major league level there was no need to really entertain a crowd. In this respect, wrestling was no less or more corrupt that other professional sports of the era, particularly in America. After the scandal of the fixed 1919 Baseball World Series, most other professional sports made drives to clear out corruption but pro wrestling went the other way, becoming pure exhibition and luring the punters back for more action replaced scamming them out of gambling money. Occasionally this could go hideously wrong as in the case of a 1915 match between Joe Stecher and Strangler Lewis which was booked to go to a draw, but only did so after five long boring hours where the authorities refused to let the match finish until and unless one or the other man won. (This match has often been misreported as a shoot which ended up in a stalemate.)For various reasons, certain top level bouts during the early period of the 20th century either went ahead without a booked result or else whatever was booked got thrown out of the window early on. An example of the former was Frank Gotch's 1908 World title victory over George Hackenshmidt where, much like Ali vs Inoki in 1976, both parties were unable to agree on a finish so it ended up being a shoot. Gotch and Hackenschmidt's 1911 return match was damaged by Hackenschmidt suffering a knee injury in training (Sadi to have been caused by an infiltarator in Gothch's pay) - it was agreed to book this as a 2-1 win for Gotch but instead he demolished Hack in two quick straight falls.
Another interesting example of the latter was Earl Caddock's match against Joe Stecher at Madison Square Garden, won by Stecher (of which about 20min of hightlights survives on very battered film.) It is reported that Stecher "went mad" in the ring and shot on Caddock trying to get his bodyscissors on and finally succeeding two hours later. Stecher is now believed to have been Type 1 bipolar and undergoing a full manic episode at the time of the match. Caddock, being in a tiny elite of top shooters along with Lewish, Stecher and Joseph Toodts Mondt, was one of the few people who could hang with Stecher in a shoot. The question is whether any result was ever booked and if so what was it. There are various reasons to believe that Stecher was booked to win anyway and that therefore Caddock was essentially in the role of Bret Hart at Summerslam 92, keeping a good match going with a mindwarped opponent.
By the mid 1920s the first experiment in having a non shooter as World Heavyewight Champion took place when Strangler Lewis jobbed his title to American Footballer Big Wayne Munn. It all ended in tears when he was double crossed by fellow Lewis employee Stanislaus Zybysko who then defected to Joe Stecher's backers' camp and jobbed the title to him. However gradually over time it was realised that the job of champion could be shared between a charismatic but not particularly skilled "tanker" frontman who actually held the championship and a "policeman" shooter who was skilled but not a glossy star and could deal with troublesome challengers and if necessary challenge and hook any such challenger who managed to double cross his way to the title.
Over time more and more shooters in America took up "doing business" (jobbing to an inferior shooter in exchange for an exhorbitant fee) and the number of hookers and shooters dropped until by the late 20th century in America most of the locker room had no legitimate skills whatsoever. In Britain this process was slowed down due to the heavy prevalance of shoot skills (Lancashire Catch as catch can wrestling having emerged in this country) and a closed shop at Joint Promotions that meant few if any wrestlers were allowed in the business without a certain level of Catch wrestling competence either from dedicated gyms such as Billy Riley's or else amateur wrestling clubs that taught full-on Shoot on the sly (often advertised as "Submission Wrestling") for the benefit of club members who aspired to a pro wrestling career.
I should also add, before he does, that wrestling historian and sometime contributor to this forum Ruslan Pashayev takes the view that Lancashire wrestling competition, with its own issues of gambling scams, qualified as a form of professional wrestling.
If you haven't already got it, I would recommend Billy's own autobiography "Physical Chess", which details his life story in Wrestling. I can't recall if it mentions many shoots (as it is years since I read it) but if I remember correctly, the only wrestlers that Billy considered to be in his league were Karl Gotch and George Gordienko.
He does mention a funny story where he is in Australia and so is Jack Brisco, who was NWA World Heavyweight Champion at the time, and they are both staying in the same hotel. They are drinking beers and Billy is explaining to Jack, some of the differences of Lancashire Catch-As-Catch-Can and Olympic Freestyle/Amatuer Wrestling (not just the submission part, but different holds and counters), and so they end up in a hotel room having beer, and showing each other some moves, and they end up drunk, shirts off, wrestling around on the floor and knocking over tables and chairs and glasses.
Billy was famously sucker-punched, from behind, when drunk, by Sailor Art White, outside a hotel bar. So he told the promoter to put him up against Art White, the following evening, or he would quit the tour. The promoter agreed, and when Art White saw the match listing for that night, he left the tour, never to return.
As for when shoot matches became worked, well David has given you a great response to that, but all I would add is that it probably happened back in Greek or Roman times!
Thanks for such a great answer. Do you know if Billy Robinson had any shoot matches not including his amuter ones?
Show wrestling is known to have existed as far back as the 1830s in circuses in France and it is speculated that it may have a lost history stretching back to time immemorial.
Catch first became a part of the pro wrestling industry as the secret weapon of carnival shooters from the 1880s onwards. Eventually it became known that there were some good resident shooters in the carnivals and interest grew in national level contests.
Prior to the 1920s, Professional Wrestling made its money from gambling scams rather than box office receipts so at major league level there was no need to really entertain a crowd. In this respect, wrestling was no less or more corrupt that other professional sports of the era, particularly in America. After the scandal of the fixed 1919 Baseball World Series, most other professional sports made drives to clear out corruption but pro wrestling went the other way, becoming pure exhibition and luring the punters back for more action replaced scamming them out of gambling money. Occasionally this could go hideously wrong as in the case of a 1915 match between Joe Stecher and Strangler Lewis which was booked to go to a draw, but only did so after five long boring hours where the authorities refused to let the match finish until and unless one or the other man won. (This match has often been misreported as a shoot which ended up in a stalemate.) For various reasons, certain top level bouts during the early period of the 20th century either went ahead without a booked result or else whatever was booked got thrown out of the window early on. An example of the former was Frank Gotch's 1908 World title victory over George Hackenshmidt where, much like Ali vs Inoki in 1976, both parties were unable to agree on a finish so it ended up being a shoot. Gotch and Hackenschmidt's 1911 return match was damaged by Hackenschmidt suffering a knee injury in training (Sadi to have been caused by an infiltarator in Gothch's pay) - it was agreed to book this as a 2-1 win for Gotch but instead he demolished Hack in two quick straight falls.
Another interesting example of the latter was Earl Caddock's match against Joe Stecher at Madison Square Garden, won by Stecher (of which about 20min of hightlights survives on very battered film.) It is reported that Stecher "went mad" in the ring and shot on Caddock trying to get his bodyscissors on and finally succeeding two hours later. Stecher is now believed to have been Type 1 bipolar and undergoing a full manic episode at the time of the match. Caddock, being in a tiny elite of top shooters along with Lewish, Stecher and Joseph Toodts Mondt, was one of the few people who could hang with Stecher in a shoot. The question is whether any result was ever booked and if so what was it. There are various reasons to believe that Stecher was booked to win anyway and that therefore Caddock was essentially in the role of Bret Hart at Summerslam 92, keeping a good match going with a mindwarped opponent.
By the mid 1920s the first experiment in having a non shooter as World Heavyewight Champion took place when Strangler Lewis jobbed his title to American Footballer Big Wayne Munn. It all ended in tears when he was double crossed by fellow Lewis employee Stanislaus Zybysko who then defected to Joe Stecher's backers' camp and jobbed the title to him. However gradually over time it was realised that the job of champion could be shared between a charismatic but not particularly skilled "tanker" frontman who actually held the championship and a "policeman" shooter who was skilled but not a glossy star and could deal with troublesome challengers and if necessary challenge and hook any such challenger who managed to double cross his way to the title.
Over time more and more shooters in America took up "doing business" (jobbing to an inferior shooter in exchange for an exhorbitant fee) and the number of hookers and shooters dropped until by the late 20th century in America most of the locker room had no legitimate skills whatsoever. In Britain this process was slowed down due to the heavy prevalance of shoot skills (Lancashire Catch as catch can wrestling having emerged in this country) and a closed shop at Joint Promotions that meant few if any wrestlers were allowed in the business without a certain level of Catch wrestling competence either from dedicated gyms such as Billy Riley's or else amateur wrestling clubs that taught full-on Shoot on the sly (often advertised as "Submission Wrestling") for the benefit of club members who aspired to a pro wrestling career.