thanks to everyone...I am not sure about Southern Area belt in the 50s. Toni Mancelli held Ring of Blackfriars belt in 1955. I never seen any photo of it either.
I saw Ed Bright billed as Southern Area champ early 1950s, pre Joint Promotions. I think only Mancelli was billed as Joint champ in the 1950s. This was Dale Martin land and I'd be very surprised if they spent money on any regional belts
thanks to everyone...I am not sure about Southern Area belt in the 50s. Toni Mancelli held Ring of Blackfriars belt in 1955. I never seen any photo of it either.
As you can see from these programmes, when they did have a chance to feature a picture of the title, they never did. Which leads me to believe there wasn't one.
Recently I was told that when Johnny Kincaid was a champion he actually had a physical championship belt symbolic of the Southern Area Hwt Title? Does anyone remember seeing it?
surprised there's no images of Mancelli with his belt, and he sure did have a belt, I recall seeing countless number of references to it in contemporary newspapers bills (articles) which spoke of Southern Area Hwt Championship.
Tony Mancelli would have been heavyweight champ until 1965, so him.
Great handbill for the ko tourney, thanks. Just goes to emphasise that Ray must have invested in his own belt because Harry Kendall was in the field and would have far and away been the most skilful wrestler.
I was influenced by all titles, 100%. Even Wayne Bridges (Kent) and Roy Bull Davis (Western Area). Certainly. And let's not forget the Jewish champions - Micky Gold was one. I don't recall seeing a CofE title...
I do think that in the sixties the RAH Trophy was a very fair equivalent to soccer's FA Cup. The FA Cup seemed to stay important until the nineties, but the RAH Trophy was snuffed out for some unfathomable reason in 1972. Also the winner of the trophy went on to face an important opponent at the end of season spectacular, for example that's how Bruno got to face Jean Ferre. I loved all that structure, it allowed me to validate my interest in a way that made me feel not too daft. But all the while I was trying to work out just who became even regional title holders and why, just like I/we are still doing today. Just that years ago, I was probably way off target.
I know you are looking for precision, Ruslan. The definition of southern England being south of the Thames falls down when you see Rushden's Doug Joyce in the tourney. Rushden's nearly a hundred miles north of the Thames.
I searched the old forum for previous discussion of this topic but couldn't find anything. Strange, as we discussed them at length years ago. Anyway, the recent talk of belts got me thinking!
Forum members have been pretty dismissive of regional title claims in the past. The fact that Jim Hussey had been Northern Heavyweight Champion meant nothing to me. Alan Wood was one of my favourite welterweights, but I didn't care whether he was Northern Area Champion or not.
We have noted that the British titles were mainly held by northern wrestlers. I remember saying that up north we didn't care about regional champions because we had the national ones.
So, my question is aimed at members from Dale Martin land.
As you rarely got your hands on a British title did the regional titles have more significance to you?
After all, we have seen earlier in this topic that the heavyweight title did have some lineage?
Another specific question. Which would you say was more prestigious, winning the Southern Area Heavyweight Belt or winning the Royal Albert Hall Heavyweight Tournament?
- Ray Fury was Southern England Light-Heavyweight Champion at a time when there wasn't even a national champion. Thank heavens for The Wrestler which made us (well, me at least) believe that all these unsatisfactory dealings really were unsatisfactory and frowned upon by the powers that be.
Hi Anglo. Wasn't Ernie Riley British Lightheavyweight Champion in 1962?
what is amazing is that title existed for at least 20 years and there's no a single photo of any champion with the belt emblematic of that title, reminds me situation with mythical Wryton Belt.
I think the Ray Fury angle is interesting. An undercarder who was the only holder of the SELHC for a decade or so, with no predecessor and no successor. Isn't this a glaring sign that he bought himself a belt and said to the promoter: "Now you can make a lowly undercarder like me top-of-the-bill somewhere once or twice a month in a title bout. I'll bring me belt."
Similar signs with Billy Joyce on wiki, just loaning his belt out to a series of buddies (Davies, Campbell, Portz, Mitchell) for a few days at a time. They could then tell their mums that they were BHCs.
In the Southern England Heavyweight lineage, Tony Charles's name is dropped into every list as garnish, but without any detail whatsoever. I researched this many mons ago, but can't remember my findings. Was he just in that 1967 RAH tourney? Did he ever actually own the title? Certainly not in 1972, as one list claims.
Thanks. Would love to see the belt if you can find. Obviously I need to clear up the Ray Fury situation, unless he won two tournaments at Maidstone, which I think is unlikely.
Brilliant thanks so much for sharing, much appreciated. I will have to dig deeper about the Southern Area Belt. I sure will be back on this subject. But yeah there was a belt, another question if Hayes ever held it, or Anglo-Italian retired it with the original title.
Here's what I have for the Southern Area titles. I haven't researched the South Eastern title yet (although it being a Paul Lincoln title it would be hard to do as titles seemed to come and go on a whim there):This is my most recent information. The Southern Area Heavyweight is quite an interesting curio as it starts in the 30's, goes through Dale Martin and ends up in the independents in the 80's. Lots of gaps in the listings for all these titles as they were often forgotten about. But i'm hooping to fill in at least some of the gaps.
Southern Area Heavyweight Title
Tiger Ted Baxter >6/1935
…
Tony Mancelli >9/1949
Dropkick Johnny Peters 1950s?
(Still champion on independents 2/1962)
Tony Mancelli 1950s-1965
Retires undefeated
VACANT
Joe Cornelius 11/11/1965 Walthamstow
Wins a KO tournament. Retires undefeated 1967
VACANT
Judo Al Hayes 11/15/1967 Royal Albert Hall
Beat Bruno Elrington in tournament final
(Still champion in 4/1971)
Bruno Elrington 10/1/1972 Portsmouth
…
Tony Charles
Bruno Elrington
Steve Veidor >2/1976
(Still/again champ in 11/1976)
…
Bill Bromley
Neil Sands >11/1978 Croydon
Johnny Kincaid 15/3/1980 Southampton
…
Alan J Batt 1980s
…
Crusher? Mason
Steve Veidor 4/Nov/1983 Brighton
…
Neil Sands 1987
(May have been the reign where Sands defeated Bill Bromley)
…
John Wilson >10/1990
Southern Area Light Heavyweight Title
Ray Fury 28/9/1962 Maidstone
Wins tournament (listed for tournament, results unknown)
Still/again champion in 1965?-1967, 1/1970
Southern Area Middleweight Title
Al Jackson 12/1952
…
Percy Kid Pittman 1955
…
Joe Murphy 1965 London
Defeats Peter Rann in tournament final
…
Peter Rann 1967 Croydon
Beat Ken Joyce in tournament final
(Still champion in 1974 when he retires)
…
Ray Crawley >10/1977
Billed by Verdun-Leslie promotions
…
Keith Haward >9/1984
…
Judo Al Hollamby >1/1985
…
J Riley >10/1988
Southern Area Welterweight Title
Mick McManus? (billed as Southern Area challenger to British title) March 1951
Jack Quesick
Mick McManus 20/11/1954 Portsmouth
(Still champion in 9/1958
Still champion in 1965
Still champion 11/1968)
Southern Area Lightweight Title
Ray Fury 28/11/1963 Maidstone
Beat Doug Joyce in tournament final
Still/again champ in 9/1964 (or at mid-heavyweight)
STILL NO BELTS?!
ruslan-pashayev
Apr 06, 2019
thanks to everyone...I am not sure about Southern Area belt in the 50s. Toni Mancelli held Ring of Blackfriars belt in 1955. I never seen any photo of it either.
I saw Ed Bright billed as Southern Area champ early 1950s, pre Joint Promotions. I think only Mancelli was billed as Joint champ in the 1950s. This was Dale Martin land and I'd be very surprised if they spent money on any regional belts
thanks to everyone...I am not sure about Southern Area belt in the 50s. Toni Mancelli held Ring of Blackfriars belt in 1955. I never seen any photo of it either.
In 1993 Mal Sanders held a belt with several previous holders' names engraved on it including Judo Al Hayes. I think that was a southern area title.
An article from the May 1967 issue of The Wrestler. All the champions and not one physical belt between them:
As you can see from these programmes, when they did have a chance to feature a picture of the title, they never did. Which leads me to believe there wasn't one.
Recently I was told that when Johnny Kincaid was a champion he actually had a physical championship belt symbolic of the Southern Area Hwt Title? Does anyone remember seeing it?
surprised there's no images of Mancelli with his belt, and he sure did have a belt, I recall seeing countless number of references to it in contemporary newspapers bills (articles) which spoke of Southern Area Hwt Championship.
Tony Mancelli would have been heavyweight champ until 1965, so him.
Great handbill for the ko tourney, thanks. Just goes to emphasise that Ray must have invested in his own belt because Harry Kendall was in the field and would have far and away been the most skilful wrestler.
I was influenced by all titles, 100%. Even Wayne Bridges (Kent) and Roy Bull Davis (Western Area). Certainly. And let's not forget the Jewish champions - Micky Gold was one. I don't recall seeing a CofE title...
I do think that in the sixties the RAH Trophy was a very fair equivalent to soccer's FA Cup. The FA Cup seemed to stay important until the nineties, but the RAH Trophy was snuffed out for some unfathomable reason in 1972. Also the winner of the trophy went on to face an important opponent at the end of season spectacular, for example that's how Bruno got to face Jean Ferre. I loved all that structure, it allowed me to validate my interest in a way that made me feel not too daft. But all the while I was trying to work out just who became even regional title holders and why, just like I/we are still doing today. Just that years ago, I was probably way off target.
I know you are looking for precision, Ruslan. The definition of southern England being south of the Thames falls down when you see Rushden's Doug Joyce in the tourney. Rushden's nearly a hundred miles north of the Thames.
Southern Area Light Hwt Championship Tourney...who was the heavyweight champ when this tourney happened?
Here is a handbill promoting a KO tournament for the Southern Area Light Heavyweight title.
Sep 28, 1963, i'm pretty confident Ray Fury won this tournament.
Hack, this is the question of all questions !!!! Thanks so much !!! Appreciated a lot !!!
I searched the old forum for previous discussion of this topic but couldn't find anything. Strange, as we discussed them at length years ago. Anyway, the recent talk of belts got me thinking!
Forum members have been pretty dismissive of regional title claims in the past. The fact that Jim Hussey had been Northern Heavyweight Champion meant nothing to me. Alan Wood was one of my favourite welterweights, but I didn't care whether he was Northern Area Champion or not.
We have noted that the British titles were mainly held by northern wrestlers. I remember saying that up north we didn't care about regional champions because we had the national ones.
So, my question is aimed at members from Dale Martin land.
As you rarely got your hands on a British title did the regional titles have more significance to you?
After all, we have seen earlier in this topic that the heavyweight title did have some lineage?
Another specific question. Which would you say was more prestigious, winning the Southern Area Heavyweight Belt or winning the Royal Albert Hall Heavyweight Tournament?
Yes, sure Bernard. I was thinking of the late sixties part of Fury's reign.
Anglo said :-
- Ray Fury was Southern England Light-Heavyweight Champion at a time when there wasn't even a national champion. Thank heavens for The Wrestler which made us (well, me at least) believe that all these unsatisfactory dealings really were unsatisfactory and frowned upon by the powers that be.
Hi Anglo. Wasn't Ernie Riley British Lightheavyweight Champion in 1962?
what is amazing is that title existed for at least 20 years and there's no a single photo of any champion with the belt emblematic of that title, reminds me situation with mythical Wryton Belt.
I think the Ray Fury angle is interesting. An undercarder who was the only holder of the SELHC for a decade or so, with no predecessor and no successor. Isn't this a glaring sign that he bought himself a belt and said to the promoter: "Now you can make a lowly undercarder like me top-of-the-bill somewhere once or twice a month in a title bout. I'll bring me belt."
Similar signs with Billy Joyce on wiki, just loaning his belt out to a series of buddies (Davies, Campbell, Portz, Mitchell) for a few days at a time. They could then tell their mums that they were BHCs.
In the Southern England Heavyweight lineage, Tony Charles's name is dropped into every list as garnish, but without any detail whatsoever. I researched this many mons ago, but can't remember my findings. Was he just in that 1967 RAH tourney? Did he ever actually own the title? Certainly not in 1972, as one list claims.
Thanks. Would love to see the belt if you can find. Obviously I need to clear up the Ray Fury situation, unless he won two tournaments at Maidstone, which I think is unlikely.
Brilliant thanks so much for sharing, much appreciated. I will have to dig deeper about the Southern Area Belt. I sure will be back on this subject. But yeah there was a belt, another question if Hayes ever held it, or Anglo-Italian retired it with the original title.
Here's what I have for the Southern Area titles. I haven't researched the South Eastern title yet (although it being a Paul Lincoln title it would be hard to do as titles seemed to come and go on a whim there): This is my most recent information. The Southern Area Heavyweight is quite an interesting curio as it starts in the 30's, goes through Dale Martin and ends up in the independents in the 80's. Lots of gaps in the listings for all these titles as they were often forgotten about. But i'm hooping to fill in at least some of the gaps.
Southern Area Heavyweight Title
Tiger Ted Baxter >6/1935
…
Tony Mancelli >9/1949
Dropkick Johnny Peters 1950s?
(Still champion on independents 2/1962)
Tony Mancelli 1950s-1965
Retires undefeated
VACANT
Joe Cornelius 11/11/1965 Walthamstow
Wins a KO tournament. Retires undefeated 1967
VACANT
Judo Al Hayes 11/15/1967 Royal Albert Hall
Beat Bruno Elrington in tournament final
(Still champion in 4/1971)
Bruno Elrington 10/1/1972 Portsmouth
…
Tony Charles
Bruno Elrington
Steve Veidor >2/1976
(Still/again champ in 11/1976)
…
Bill Bromley
Neil Sands >11/1978 Croydon
Johnny Kincaid 15/3/1980 Southampton
…
Alan J Batt 1980s
…
Crusher? Mason
Steve Veidor 4/Nov/1983 Brighton
…
Neil Sands 1987
(May have been the reign where Sands defeated Bill Bromley)
…
John Wilson >10/1990
Southern Area Light Heavyweight Title
Ray Fury 28/9/1962 Maidstone
Wins tournament (listed for tournament, results unknown)
Still/again champion in 1965?-1967, 1/1970
Southern Area Middleweight Title
Al Jackson 12/1952
…
Percy Kid Pittman 1955
…
Joe Murphy 1965 London
Defeats Peter Rann in tournament final
…
Peter Rann 1967 Croydon
Beat Ken Joyce in tournament final
(Still champion in 1974 when he retires)
…
Ray Crawley >10/1977
Billed by Verdun-Leslie promotions
…
Keith Haward >9/1984
…
Judo Al Hollamby >1/1985
…
J Riley >10/1988
Southern Area Welterweight Title
Mick McManus? (billed as Southern Area challenger to British title) March 1951
Jack Quesick
Mick McManus 20/11/1954 Portsmouth
(Still champion in 9/1958
Still champion in 1965
Still champion 11/1968)
Southern Area Lightweight Title
Ray Fury 28/11/1963 Maidstone
Beat Doug Joyce in tournament final
Still/again champ in 9/1964 (or at mid-heavyweight)
…
Alan Miquet >1968
Beat Bobby Barnes in tournament final