Andy Scott who is doing his own Chick Knight Book has asked if two pretty big wrestlers can be identified.
I think the biggest guy (Right) is Jack Baltus (Carver Doone)
The other guy I am still looking at.
Help and opinions much appreciated. I do think we are looking at 1930's and in these matters they are always tricky which is why we need people taking a stab.
Grrr the format of this forum. I can't see what Ron was giving me credit for three years ago, and I see no post from myself, and I cannot detect who has revived this today.
Otherwise, peaches and cream!
For what it's worth, I just re-looked at the picture today and on the left instantly saw Norman the Butcher.
I think that height for Pettifer is bang on which is always nice to see.
Don't think he wrestled for long , but he is one of my candidates to be Oakeley's pre war Ghoul.
Great collection MM....thanks.
There are plenty of Google images and also can be found on facebook.
When I found this picture where he was not actually dwarfing everyone , I can now understand why Carver Doone showed up bigger.
Also some footage here of him tapping to Shikat in USA
https://www.efootage.com/videos/55720/shikat-vs-pinetzki-wrestling-match-1932
Thanks Mike and Ron.
Pinecki actually seems to have had a tough life in some respects. The fact that his village was on the border of "Greater Poland" and Germany, and he was Polish but conscripted into the Prussian Army (German), wrestled in Germany in his Polish National colours until Hitler came to power and was then forced to change. Having to give a Nazi salute in the ring, etc.
After World War 2, the Germans thought he was some sort of spy for the Poles and vice versa. He seems to have been given a rough time.
From what I can tell, he did OK in America and maybe should have just stayed there. Pfefer made sure he (and other Polish wrestlers) won enough matches to become popular with local Polish-American citizens and there are a few stories of Pinecki being invited as guest of honour to parties, where his legendary eating and drinking came into effect (apparently he drank beers to warm up and then a bottle and half of Vodka, with no effect).
Anyway, again, someone I knew little of. My friends with Polish family history will find this very interesting I think.
Much appreciated Mike , that explains the Assirati business and great that you could look at the photo and come up with the name.
Amazing that Jack Baltus (Carver Doone) is clearly bigger but that's typical of wrestling.
The last part of the mystery is where the photo was taken because we can neither prove Carver Doone ever wrestled overseas or that Pinetzki wrestled here.
In my haste to answer your mystery wrestler I named him as Leon Pinetzki, known as the ape man, which is correct, Assirati beat his Brother Harry at the Berlin Tournament in 1952, as well as the giant Kurt Zehe. I have a lot of German Tournament photos around 1936 showing Leon and other German wrestlers doing the Nazi salute. I hope that clarifies my info,
Agreed Ron, time for others to chip in. The Pfefer connection could indicate that our man spent some time in London, maybe on route to the USA? Did Oakeley mention any Eastern European Giant in Blue Blood on the Mat?, it's years since I read it, and I sold my copy.
It's been really interesting looking into the Pinecki life story, a man I knew nothing of.
So maybe a brother and a son or maybe confusion , but thanks Sax , you and I have been debating for a long time now.
Credit to Anglo who had a go and we wanted more from others , but then this is 1930's and most are wary of saying anything. It is Niche stuff.
Mike Hallinan has his Assirati records , a great hobby in itself , but if he meant this giant Pole who based his wrestling in Germany and so seemed like a German then fighting Assirati in 1952 can't be right.
We have found no alternative as facially the photo and Pinetzki are very alike.
I don't know because a giant like this man in the video should have measured up almost the same as Carver Doone.
These are the mysteries of wrestling and it's giants , which for me have always started at six feet six inches. We know wrestling is an illusion.
The papers have no consistency either with heights and weights , but what I did get out of this research is that Jack Pfefer was plundering Europe via London for giants, Sergie Kalmikoff went as did Kola Kwariani. They are hard men to find a wrestling record of here , but they did wrestle here and I have a feeling we have missed Pinetzki , possibly somewhere in London.
Pinetzki was actually a top man in Europe and also in America and we gain a nice knowledge of it all.
Even something so basic as more pictures of Norman the Butcher evade us and recently we have lost Ray Plunkett. I think even Ray's great efforts may have only covered a quarter of all that went on.
So anyone reading , even if you have never posted , a chance to give an opinion. At the start of the thread we have a photo then we have a video of a giant wrestling an Elephant. Are they the same man.
Hi Ron, another bit of info, after more digging, it appears that Leon Pinecki was married three times, and he had a son, Harry, who folowed him into wrestling, but had to stop because of a heart defect, I think this is the wrestler who Bert Assirati faced. Harry P appears to have had an 8 year wrestling career.
"...Pinecki's only child, Harry, following his father's example, became a wrestler, but a heart defect forced him to interrupt his sports career..."
I have a snippet from an american report. Pinetzski liked to eat a 24 egg omelet.
By my reckoning that's pretty near 150 grams of protein.
Great research and thread, guys!
Great thread guys!
Right again Sax and another one Pfefer took over at the same time was Sergie Kalmikoff. In an interview he said that to get the best Europeans London was the place to get them. Maybe Pinecki had visited England.
That latest picture I put up is amazing considering Carver Doone looked even bigger.
I don't think Assirati fought Leon Pinecki, as I am sure his death is 1949 is correct, Ron.
Harry sounds more likely and was active at that time.
The picture above, the person on the right, with the walking stick, is promoter Jack Pfefer, who was originally from Warsaw and brought a number of Polish (and other) giant wrestlers across to the USA. Pfefer was not a tall man, and I would imagine he rounded up men of a similar height for the photograph.
Other articles have Pinecki at six eight and yet he fights Strangler Lewis and they have him only at 250 LBS , then it's 300 LBS for other matches.
What did they do to take this photo , find the smallest men they could. he shore looks a big un here.
I found an article in the Australia papers in 1932 about Pinecki and the Elephant so that looks to be the year of the video footage.
The Australian papers quoted his height as six eight and then actually seven feet.
Also of note , an article on Max Krauser stating that he had beaten Pinecki in Europe and had 85 victories in England plus a draw with Jack Sherry.
1932 was also the year Pinecki went to America and lo and behold they stated he was a giant of six feet four and 280 LBS , so that is more like the comparison with Carver Doone.
It does not explain though how he could have fought Assirati in 1952.
Did Assirati fight his brother.
Carver Doone at almost six seven measured six eight and a half in his lumberjack boots which boxing circles used to bill him because Carnera's height had caused a sensation and to best that was a great way of selling tickets. Doone and Pettifer were taller than Carnera.
It's a tough one, no doubt Ron.
Facially, it's a direct match (for me) of the giant Pole.
I knew nothing about the man until this thread, and has been great fun digging up his story.
Carver is easy 1932-1937 as a Wrestler and you can refresh on what i have said here.
https://www.wrestlingheritage.com/onthetrailofcarverdoone
Chic started mid 1930's , I reckon the picture is 1936/1937.
My problem is that I don't see the man in the picture as being big enough.
Give or take an inch the giant Pole would look similar to Carver in height as would have Jim Moran. But not just height , weight as well.
The man in the picture is just not quite big enough for me.
Carver and Chic did do Film Work so that was an opportunity although I don't know if they did the same film ever.
No doubt Ost will be posting tonight , maybe he can give us an extra opinion.
I can't even say Anglo is wrong , I just can't make heads or tails of it.
Ron, to me, the man in the picture with Chick and Carver is facially very close to Leon Pinecki, I would say very, very close indeed, in fact.
The length of his arms (in the picture of all three of them), look freakishly long, and this is what is said in the accounts of him I have been reading, it was his height, build/weight and wingspan that made him stand out.
The angle of the original picture is hard to judge. Doone looks bigger (which I think his stats made out he would be), but his arms don't appear any longer than the other bloke.
Why all three would be together for that sort of publicity photo, I am not sure, nor am I (or any of us) sure where the picture was taken.
Leon Pinecki appears to be have been wrestling around Europe until a year before his death, so that means the picture could have been anywhere from 1920 to 1948, we would need to tie in Chick Knight and Carver Doone's active years.
To further complicate matters, Chick Knight faced Harry Pinetzki in Berlin in November 1953. I assume that this is the same man in the film footage (earlier in the thread) that was facing Primo Carnera, and looked nothing like Leon Pinecki?
What's your gut feeling Sax....is the man with Chic and Carver the giant in the Video....... Pinecki
Or is the man in the picture not heavy enough or tall enough and could be someone called Piniski (German/Austrian) who fought Assirati in 1952 according to Mike Hallinan , and that man had a Nazi salute gimmick.
You have proved Polish born Pinecki was not alive in 1952. great stuff.
He was Polish by birth Ron, if my digging around is correct. Not a million miles from the East German border.
His death in 1949 seems to be correct, his wife survived him by 30 years.
Real confused now.
His death , his brother , German or Polish.
Just been checking Carver Doone again and promoted at boxing as six eight , but I think that's in his boots. (Boxed as Jack Murphy)
Our man , nice and relaxed in that picture just does not look as fierce as the man in the video and yet facially they look to be the same.
Jim Moran on Youtube with Marino looks tame compared to me seeing him in the flesh up real close as Gargantua. So a great topic ,but not 100 percent on the verdict.
The snag is is not finding this guy in our papers wrestling here.
The hardest thing for me is that Jack Baltus (Carver Doone) is significantly bigger than this giant in almost every way. Baltus was only about 22 stones.
Message from Mike Hallinan
Leon Pineski also had a brother Harry
Best Mike................
Hi Ron
The "damaged leg" that you mention: -
"...After the outbreak of war, he organized help for prisoners kept in the Łagów camp. He came back from captivity with a leg that had grown badly after being broken. During the bombing, the building wall crushed him. He owes his strength to being able to free himself from debris..."
And the "Pinetzki" that you mentioned in 1952, was Harry Pinetzky (also known as Harry Pinetzki and Harry Pinetzki Junior, no relation as far as I know), who wrestled around Europe at the time ('40's and 50's) and also also wrestled Primo Carnera in Rome, in 1951.
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/primo-carnera-back-in-italy-wrestling-with-pinetzk/query/primo+carnera
As for why Leon was in the picture at the start of the thread, I assume the same as Kurt Zehe, he was another "Giant" who was brought over for a match, or maybe to appear in a film or something.
He was very active in the USA and actually fought Dick Shikat, who went on to hold a version of the "World Heavyweight Title" at Madison Square Garden, under the name George "Leo" Pinetzki.
March 21, 1932-NY MSG (att: 8,000)
Dick Shikat over George "Leo" Pinetzki (34:58)
I might have started the thread , but I am by no means the referee.
Anglo does have a point , but I do lean towards the Polish giant who seems to be deceptively thick with muscle in the video especially on the thighs. Note one injured quad. The guy seems a bit thin at the knee with loads of upper thigh bulk.
The shoulder close to Chic Knight does look bony.
I see at least two inches of height difference with Doone and perhaps more , but there is always camera angle as well.
Mike Hallinan identifies Austrian/German Leon Piniski as the man and that Assirati fought him in 52 in Germany and also the guy did a Nazi salute.
Could German Pinitski and Pole Pinecki be two different people.
The man in the video looks 22 stones and looks similar in height to Jim Moran with that big bone structure. As Sax says he was measured at six six.
Doone was measured at six seven.
I think the guy with Chic Knight was six three, six four.
The picture it seems was to make a point how tall these guys were next to Chic.
So as Ost says , more pictures of the Butcher required but if you are talking 1930's I think he looks too young then to be this man.
And crucially , Can anyone find a German Pinitski that Assirati fought in 1952.
In Anglo's favour , I think that photo is taken in England.
We need more photos of Norman the Butcher.
Anglo - "...But the key point is glaringly obvious. Norman wore black tights..."
So did our man, Leon Pinecki, on occasion.
This is a bit of a mystery, as you say Ron!
I have done some digging around and it appears that our man Leon really was a giant. Information I have found says that he was born on April 6th 1892, in a village called Stolien, near Miedzyrzecz. His Mother died when he was four years old and his Aunt helped his Father to raise him. He worked as a young man, helping his Father in building and bricklaying. He was conscripted into the Prussian Army during the first World War, and after that, learned Amateur Wrestling at the Berlin Athletics Club.
He was measured at 6ft 6" in height, around 22 stones in weight and an impressive 8 feet wingspan (just look at the length of his arms in the original picture).
His first wrestling match (professional, I assume), was in Hamburg in 1920. He wrestling all over Europe, the USA and South America.
He became a sort of forgotten figure, after his death (listed, as you say, in 1949), until a University Professor (Professor Kazimierz Parafianowicz), out on a country walk, came across a damaged head stone in a small graveyard that said "Leon Pinecki, Wrestling Champion", and, intrigued, set out to piece together the history of the man.
What remains of most of the trophies that Pinecki won, were in the care of the Piatowski family in Warsaw (some may still be), but others are now in a small room in the village of Stolunia, looked after by a lady called Maria Czernianin.
If the story is correct, Leon married late in life (not sure if this was his first marriage or not) to a lady called Helena Sokolowska, but died the following year.
It appears that during his time in the first World War, he helped prisoners in a POW camp in a place called Lagow, and in 1986, they named a street in the village after him, and placed a plaque on a wall in his memory.
Here is our man, Leon, with a belt (Ruslan!).
Take a look at the shape of his face, and, if possible, look side by side with the original picture. This is our man.
I am surprised you have abandoned Norman the Butcher so easily, Ron, especially since the evidence for Carver Doone ever being in a situation to be in a photo with Pinetzki appears non-existent.
That Pinetzki photo displays knobbly shoulders, absent on the original photo. And just look at Norman's long arms, just like Lee Bronson's.
But the key point is glaringly obvious. Norman wore black tights. Elephant man has trunks (get it?☺) And Elephant Man is far too stocky.
Unlike me to be a lone voice.
I agree with you SaxonWolf and I remember growing up in the 1950's I only saw one man about our town centre over six feet. he was probably six two. There were not many six footers.
At School with guys younger and older than myself the tallest I ever saw was six three. Within 20-30 years they were coming through at six six.
Back to the two giants , there is one other mystery.....The Photo itself and where.
I have no knowledge of Carver Doone fighting anywhere but England for Oakeley.
he was not in Australia or Canada on wrestling business.
Alternatively I cannot see Leon Pinetzki ever working here.
I have a sneaking feeling this means that he did.
Wonder if Main Mask has him.
Ironically a so claimed Polish heavyweight champ was here in 1943 also called Leon and again he is almost invisible in wrestling records.
I have said this before on other threads, but at 6ft 2" tall, I was the smallest amongst my teenage/early 20's pals. two of the others were somewhere between 6ft 3" and 6ft 4" and one was 6ft 5". While the 3 three inches between 6ft 2" and 6ft 5" might not appear to be much, my pal looked like a giant next to me (he still does!).
I remember my 6ft 5" pal standing next to Big Jim Moran, who was working a nightclub door at the time, and Jim Moran appeared to tower over my pal!
I guess the point I am trying to make is that anyone above around 6ft 4" looks huge, and especially back in earlier times, when someone around 5ft 10" was considered tall.
Even more mystery for those who like it , maybe he was Polish and https://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=15934 have his death as 1949 yet it seems Assirati fought him in his German tour in 1952.
He looks a really big man in Ost's video but not as big as Carver Doone.
Assuming Doone really was measured as six seven in stocking feet on his trip to Australia then this guy must have been Gwyn Davies/Pat Roach size .
That size though in the 1930's was a huge man.
Some great finds on this thread chaps.
Splendid work fellas. I looked in at the start but was already out of my depth. I did a quick search for Pintezki this morning and came up with nothing.
Yes that looks like the man, Leon Stanislaw Pinecki, who wrestled as Leon (or sometimes Leo) Pinetzki, billed as 6ft 8, but probably less (as they all were).
Good call that:
Change of plan here guys , after a message from Mike Hallinan , the tall guy on the left of the picture , he states to be German/Austrian Leon Piniski.
I go with that , Mike Hallinan is very good at getting these right.
You will find Pettifer as a boxer Osty with his true height. six six apparently.
Harold Lane presented two giants in the late 30's. Stanley Ketchel (billed as 7ft 2) and Jack Pettifer (billed as 6ft 8). The report states "These two men put up a fine show and did everything except wrestle."
Unfortunately the only photo I have is too blurry to be of any use.
Great stuff MM , Just looked it up and my congratulations , I think you have found the first one of Fred Keyes. Big Lad too.
100 percent convinced we have Carver who like Chic did some film work.
And I am quite pleased that Norman the Butcher is a good call.
I had not thought that he was so tall. Seeing Anaconda next to Carnera proved he was only just over six feet , but that was really big in the 1930's , where even Assirati was probably average height at five six or seven.
I was a bit frustrated at not finding a picture of Fred (Half Nelson) Keyes who i think we crossed paths with recently on a Main mask thread. Was there a photo.
He was a full size heavy.
Fortunately I had people like John Bell , George Clark and King Curtis and there were not too many others.
So , with caution I will relay this to Andy Scott for his book.
And you know chaps , it's amazing for people doing research like Andy and many others , Heritage is the place to come. This site is so successful.
Lee Bronson evidently inherited the hairline!
I saw bald Norman in the seventies and he was a stocky 6'2", so maybe 6'3" in his youth.
That would make the taller guy about 6'6" which, as you say, Ron, was a giant in the 30s - especially when they had added a few inches to the billing. Given the few tall wrestlers of the era, and the fact that those few could make good money and were therefore well-known - you don't have many options; more to the point I certainly think the photos look like Carver. Your three Carvers - estimating 20, 30 and 40 years old - all share that slight lantern jaw.
He's your man, Ron, don't worry about defamation!
What troubles me is that when I think of a name , I don't remember the billing pushing the height . In the 1930's if you were as big as the guy on the left they probably would exaggerate the height and might even bill you as a giant.
I have a picture of 30's Norman the Butcher. and three of carver Doone that I hope someone will agree that the really big guy is him so please tell me what you think on Doone Anglo.
On the left it looks to me like Norman the Butcher, with hair. Norman's nose; Lee's frame.