The Kirkgate Chambers Omerta

I'm afraid I'm out of loop. What was so bad about Tug Wilson as matchmaker for Wryton? Repetitive matches? I believe the Conroy fellow had a fall out with Ian Burns, and Tug was given the job as he and Burns got on. When was that period?

"I respected the balance of the shows."

You sure had a mature approach and understanding, even in your twenties, Paul.

Fascinating that you got on with Charlie. He came across as so intense, unapproachable. Seemed unimpressed by most bouts - until he could take his jacket off and get it on with a sulky baddie. Then he seemed to want the action for real. I must have underestimated him at the time, he must have been a great actor. Loved his recent Parisian tag match from 1957, he was so dynamic.

Mike Judd must have had problems in that he had zero wrestling heritage (small h). The "lads" will have struggled to accept this?

Harry Roth too, but dear Harry came across as such an aficionado....his enthusiasm was infectious.

Dale was the benchmark promoter for credibility and the sporting element,however until the break up that could be said of all the other members of joint.I respected the balance of the shows. Right now to Mike Judd I personally had no run ins his in ring work gave a measured professional image,however I heard and witnessed.some out of order treatment of established pros.His demeanour was I'm in charge get over it and appeared to want a secretive and aloof operation at Dales,he may have had good reason to do this.Harry Roth very brief experience but was knowledgeable and was descriptive.Very similar in that respect to Ernie Lofthouse without the fussiness.Always,liked Bob Verlander and good old Charlie at Dales.Martins whisky voiced intros were steeped in wrestling history although later he dropped the descriptive fall details.Neil Sodden excellent and Stan Ryland greatly underrated.

Thanks Paul. You seem to have a lot of respect for Dale Martin Promotions in various ways. The one we always hear horror stories about was Mike Judd; but to me as a punter I thought he was just about the best MC (with Harry Roth) and added great value.

Really interesting thank you. Tug Wilson to replace him certainly seems a strange choice. Not surprised that things did not turn out well.

I'm trying to to work out when Martin was last involved. He's on the TV taping from Bedworth in August 1976 so some time after that I guess.

Martin was initially sidelined and then demotedby Ian Burns,Martin was drinking heavily although I didn't see any evidence of impact on his work,this action had a counter effect and it was sad to see the results.Burns replacement was Eric Tug Wilson and the results of that move weren't good to put it very mildly.

Anglo asked who were the best payers,well to answer this I point out that there was an agreement on thresholds and ceilings by all members of joint

This agreement was not met by all if not most of the members,workers were encouraged not to disclose pay to the public,probably because the image be ruinedplus they'd never believe wed do it and risk serious injury for the money and secondly never discuss with fellow workers,this was because the above agreement wasn't met due to promoters wanting certain workers loyalty.Dales probably came closest to the agreement.

Regarding Kent my comment was on what he said was the reason for Billy Howes absence.Kent Walton was a bit of an enigma he was close to certain Wrestlers and he did attend promoters house parties but this was in the 60 and early seventies,later he appeared to distance himself a little and made quotes on TV such as wellies not wrestling but it's entertaining,which no way would he have said a decade earlier but then again he wouldn't have witnessed anything like it in the ring.He was fed info by promoters he did speak to workers not universally though.He invented names for holds in Japanese strangle hold

I was after a televised bout asked once did I enjoy my Swedish tour by a guy I knew, my reply was eh what you on about,he said well Kent Walton said your just back off it.Was he in on it well if he wasn't in 1955 he sure was by the eighties.

Really interesting stuff. I'm intrigued by the Wryton group and the timeline. What was the reason Conroy was forced out? Seems like he had been in and out of promotions for many years.

Right then, Paul,

You seem as influenced as all of us by Kent Walton's comments (today, diabetes)

You wrestled lots on tv. What was your relationship with Kent Walton during it all? How involved was he?

(Don't tell us you wouldn't talk to him in the dressing room....)

Ernest Lofthouse was particularly anxious to keep a lid on

Fans as keen as us on Heritage deserve some good snips of info and Paul has done us proud. Many Thanks.

Would love a list of who was forbidden to work with Joint and for what reason , but maybe that is asking too much.

Apologies?

That's magnificent, content-packed, a real eye-opener, thanks so much.

You are very objective.

That's the first I knew about Roy Harding and Mrs Harding.

From a fan's point of view, I loved Johnny Dale and never understood why he just appeared as an MC in about 1974, already pensionable age.

Absolutely fascinating Jack Dempsey comment!

I suppose the only remaining question from me is: was the money the same whether you worked for Morrell, DM, Wryton etc?

Was part of the deal between them that they had a set pay scheme?

I would imagine so.

baby. My favourite promotion had to be wryton treated well and never short changed the public however my opinion changed when Martin was forced out by Burns and replaced by Eric Wilson and we all know how that turned out. Relywskows were well organised but were more parochial lots of Yorkshire Wrestlers who didn't get much from the others.Great to work for and no politics.Dales were polished professional and followed the joint mantra to the letter very little false billing even stated no wrestler with criminal conviction used.Jack Dempsey loved working for Dales he said their crowds appreciated real wrestling.Brixton was like a rabbit Warren onr criticism was too many chiefs.recieved instructions pay etc from any from Johnny dale Mike Marino old Mick, Joe,Mrs harding,Judd and many more.Relationships and hierarchy hard to follow Roy Harding rise to prominence was a case in point. M and B old school and better for it bob Verlander a gent, Ernie Lofthouse and spouse too fussy.Billy Best straight out of Arthur Wright mould great for getting your picture with the Beatles.Jack Atherton a true gentleman knew came inside out and passed it on. Max Crabtree better of the three but short term planning ok for running the Black Pussycat in Bradford but lost all semblance of sport towards the end replaced the cream that jumped ship with non dairy substitute.Appologies for the rant.

Great stuff, Paul, many thanks for sharing sensitive detail.

This was the power of Joint Promotions. They didn't get on at all, as you say. They were competitors! But they made it work. And they collaborated intimately, sharing a common enemy, or enemies. Like Mafia dons, dividing up the turf.

The cracks in their relationships fascinate us all, exemplified by Peter Preston beating McManus.

But through it all, JPs was a huge money-spinner over 20+ years. Even if everyone seemed to hate Norman.

You had an approx 12-year JPs career, is that about right? What were the differences between working for say Norman, Dales, Geo del Rel and Wryton?

And when you did work for Dales, who was your boss? Who booked you, paid you, and told you what was required?

Thanks Paul , so every five shows I went to , perhaps had two fights that went against plan.

I always told my mates that some of it was too real to be completely "arranged"

I heard stories at the back of the halls of some wrestlers being very wary of others. Very little of this has ever come out.

I guess some of it was "GRUDGE" and on other occasions someone got a hard knock and retaliated and it got out of hand. Almost always alright afterwards.

I am sure the majority was pure worker Camaraderie , at least that seems to shine through at the re-unions.

Interesting question re formality Anglo even now I'm looking over my shoulder. The code was introduced policed and maintained by two groups the promoters and the workers.It was a matter of pride as well as revenue protection.The code waned in the 70s the workers blamed certain promoters for devaluing the game and promoters blamed jealous disgruntled workers.Jack Dempsey said the games gone when it looks likeit not hurting and anyone from the pub can do it.McManus who I liked a lot always kept the faith.The exposes were big news at first but then not so,they were delivered by workers who felt undervalued the only big exception was delivered by a non worker and his motivation was very different

Going in to the game in the60 meant you had to be able to actually wrestle look after yourself and be fit and this was appreciated by the punters

Dressing rooms were sacrosanct.Ron your 5 percent not bad guess but I'd reckon round about 10 per cent ypu had to have an ego to get anywhere and feathers were ruffled sometimes purposely orchestrated by the promoters.policy decisions at the monthly booking meetings were often macivalean some of the cartel did not putting it mildy get on.

I think it is great that you have spoken on this Paul. There is no point anymore, protecting the game. It has took a long time , but the proof is there now we have the newspapers to see how "workers" repeatedly worked the same bout everywhere , beyond really what we could ever have imagined.

Fifty years ago , some bouts looked so hard and yet you could also see that Johnny Saint and Vic Faulkner were just having fun. Even for them they roughed it sometimes , but the average bout was a show.

But as you say it is a hard game of hard men and schooling went on and niggle and revenge. What is very secret and keeps up the allure is that most of us do not know really who did not like who. Who could never be put together with his enemy.

It is clear there would have been some jealousy of who got regular work and who was cheated of it.

Who was reliable and always turned up , who was a let down on this front. Who would not travel.

I had a tough time trying to understand the mixture. Why were some bouts so real looking and others so silly. It was so hard to find a bill that had what I wanted in every bout. The spectrum of Hans Streiger to Catweazle. It was impossible for me to accept this.

So the game at it's best was done hard and rough and you had to take more than a bit. But if you were too stiff , your own comrades might cook your goose with the promoter.

But the million dollar question for me is "How many bouts had some real stuff going on"

My guess is Five per cent. But that may show how little I know.

And then of course , we have Dressing Room tales.

Strange how few admit to getting hurt.

The decline was painful to witness as a fan, over years. We had invested in and defended our hobby down the years to all the knockers, but the Big Daddy show started to make us look rather foolish.

It must have been way more difficult for those like you who had built their lives on maintaining the credibility of a sport that had been presented as believable, serious. I imagine you had to lie to all sorts of people, including family and friends?

The wording of this topic intrigues me. How formal was the Omerta?