WAS MIKE MARINO OVER-RATED?

Always have to say about Mike, he didn't "do it" particularly for me, but served the game well and brought on many star names: including Wayne Bridges & Mal Sanders so worthy of respect

Thanks Hack, a draw with a credible world champion is a good result.

According to the Lou Thesz tribute on this site Marino drew with Lou at Hanley on 23rd December, 1957. The source was Ray Plunkett.

Here are the details of the televised matches that Ost mentions, note that it gives you the original TV Times billed line up at the bottom.

25/5/63, Wembley, 1.20-2.40

Mick McManus (Southern area welterweight champion) (2) v Jackie Pallo (1)

Mike Marino (2) v Ski Hi Lee (1)

Steve Logan (2) v Steve Veidor (1)

Sid Cooper (2) v Zolton Boscik (1)

Johnny Kwango (2) v Keith Williams (1)

This was the annual FA Cup Final day spectacular, billed in the TV Times as "the show of the year". The billed line-up was McManus v Pallo, Clayton Thomson v Ezzard Hart, Leon Fortuna v Jim Breaks and Lindy Caulder (Lightweight and welterweight champion of the West Indies) v Pete Szakacs.

That is an interesting point Ost? The televised matches bore little resemblance to the ones that were billed to appear that day, wonder why they made the changes and, as you say, why two Paul Lincoln wrestlers appeared?

One thing that I think is interesting (you may have discussed this already) is this:

May 25, 1963 - a Televised show from Wembley on FA Cup final day.

Mike Marino defeated Sky Hi Lee 2-1. Now at the time both of these men worked for Paul Lincoln. Before and after this one-off. Did DM feel they needed bigger names for the Cup final show? Or did another match fall through. The answer is probably on the site, but I just think it's interesting and shows you the power of being a big name.

Marino had last appeared on TV in May of 1961, and wouldn't appear again until May of 1966.

Still the Wayne Bridgeses of this world are leaning tight-lippedly across the flaps of their bars refusing to share any info with nutter punters like us.

If only they were to know that they would nudge closer to immortality by sharing their wealth of experieces with us Nice nutters.

"actual evidence" ... Saxonwolf is spot on again in this game of smoke and mirrors.

We run the risk of believing articles written with great authority in 1968 about what did, or probably didn't, happen in the fifties.

The late fifties are very very under-reported. At least at that time. It was all based on reminiscences ten years later. Vague reminiscences. Reminiscences distorted to suit all and sundry.

Did we know that when the great Lou Thesz came to wrestle in the UK in 1957, Mike Marino was one of the men he faced?

Can we see if we can find actual evidence of this?

"... But it was to be Marino's year and fresh from a great battle with world heavyweight champion Lou Thesz at Hanley, Marino travelled to Aberdeen to meet Demitre, and came home with the title. ..."

Back to the Golden Boy.

Today is the anniversary of the death of Mike Marino.

Main Mask

You say Ct Bartelli should have retired.

Do you know how exciting it was for me in 1972 when he came south AND signed for me AND had a chat with me.

To agree with you I would have to erase my happiness.

And then he got in the ring. Old, yes. Stiff, a bit. But he OWNED the ring. His opponent just worked around him

Magic.

Please, Main Mask, don't.

A few comments comparing Marino and Bartelli. I do think that Marino at 59 was more credible than Bartelli at 59.

I have just read the Mike Marino's biography in John Lister's book 'Have a Good Week … Till Next Week'. A couple of quotes from it are 'on the British circuit he quickly made his name as a highly skilled technical grappler, working out in the gyms with the likes of Bert Assirati and Billy Robinson. Johnny Kincaid recalls that Marino produced a more credible wrestling base style 'he was a wrestler's wrestler. He liked to wrestle straight and his moves were very feasible'. Marty Jones recalls that Marino didn't use his legitimate skills to take advantage of younger grapplers 'he was what I think of as a great technical wrestler, he could make anyone look good and he wanted you to look good'.

I think that Mike Marino is just spoken too highly of by other wrestlers for him not to have been good enough to warrant his position as a champion, at his peak. I must admit that when I first saw him in 1977 I was not too impressed but I now know that he was 56 then. Like Mick McManus and Count Bartelli, he was allowed to keep his title in the 1970's, even though they were all in their fifties. I think that we should blame the promotors for that that, not Mike Marino.

Mike Marino and his amazing knowledge of all the holds and throws. His technical perfection remained until the very end. I think he brought Superstar Mal Sanders into the grappling game. Mike Marino, a wrestling legend.

Agree Anglo and I remember the fiction they wrote about Carl Reginsky. Born in England actually and had a scar they said was from a duel in Germany , but it was a night club incident.

Thanks Hack.

Weren't those old articles so beautifully written. They reveal almost nothing and most of any detail in what they do say we can now determine to have been tosh. I think even the writer forgot himself as his 33-y-o- Mike would have been just 20 when winning his European title in Paris.

No opponents are named, no promoters are named. Was his wife Italian? I rather thought not. The Italian childhood also sounds a bit dodgy - but just confirmed to the causal reader and fan what we wanted to believe. And he limited himself to two or three bouts a week....

And Primo Carnera is tagged on for no obvious reason. Love it.

1960 article

That's intriguing John. You write that his title defences fizzled out from 1972, and that's precisely when he started being the match-maker. So this clearly suited him.

Remember he did put himself in the limelight and had two bouts on the same evening at the Albert Hall. Both were 2-1 wins over McManus and then Big Daddy. He liked his bit of glory and perhaps didn't feel that merely defending his belts supplied this.

Johnny Kidd said today that one of the wrestlers he would have liked to wrestle was Mike Marino. He did also say there was no way that it could happen as he was a welterweight and Marino was fighting the likes of Bruno Elrington at the time. But Marino was a man he admired.

From the old results that I have seen I think that Mike Marino title fights were quite frequent in the 1950's, 60's and early 70's but seem to fade away after about 1972. A couple that I think took place after 1972 were a defence of the British title against Terry Rudge at the Royal Albert Hall on 15th March 1978 and his last bout on TV on 21st February 1981 when he defended the European title against Alan Kilby.

Just watched on YouTube Alan Kilby vs Tom Dowie (sorry can't supply the link) given as title eliminator to wrestle Mike Marino for his European mid-heavyweight belt. Mike comes into the ring with the belt and shows it to the wrestlers and fans.Great close up shot of this magnificent belt .The bout is well worth a watch.

So to reply to you both about this, let me speak for myself.

Sure I saw Mike Marino was World and British Champ throughout the seventies. (The European title seemed to waft in and out of the mix.) In my memory, Mike was invariably billed as British champion, rather than World.

But I had no issues with this. I read my The Wrestler magazines and saw Mike in Championship bouts in Nottingham and just passively accepted that he was defending his titleS every now and again.

That's talking for myself. Maybe I was gullible. Are you two saying that you were aware at that time that Mike wasn't defending very often?

I equally imagined that McManus was defending his European title, Colbeck his. In fact I was further convinced through the song and dance that WAS indeed made at the time about Billy Joyce not defending his Light-Heavyweight belt. He was the outed naughty one.

Sure I can see now and raise a collective eyebrow with you about what was going on then. In this way we have dissected the wrestling business for many years on the internet. Sure I had concerns (Catweazle ...) and championship non-defences were the last thing on my mind.

But I do prefer to avoid the benefit of too much hindsight and try to recall what I was actually thinking in those exciting times. To be honest, I wasn't evaluating things much at all. I was, I believe like us all, scratching around for results and information with the primitive pre-internet methods we all used.

Anglo, I am not arguing about his credentials as a "shooter", if that is what you are implying?, I am sure, as we have been told, back in the days he started out, the basic starting point was that you had to be able to wrestle in the amateur style, to at least an average degree.

Like I said, it was more the world title claim, similar to Maxine with his belt, that made the whole thing "less plausible" shall we say. That's all.

In terms of Marino being over-rated - still not sure who was over-rating, but from fuzzy questions interesting thoughts emerge - the very fact that he wrestled pretty much all those mentioned in this thread just underscores his versatility.

Worrying about to what degree he was a shooter, and true we have no idea: spare me this, please. Quite irrelevant in wrestling though 8,000 professional wrestling bouts.

Shooter certainly enough not to pick up an injury and disappoint.

Pro enough to spill the claret at times.

Respected enough to trade belts back and forth. And to slip seamlessly back to the DM fold when others didn't.

This is what we see, what we know.

Beyond this, the promoters and other wrestlers must have loved him.

The promoters did a great job in telling us we should love him, too (even if Main Mask now has us scratching our heads as to precisely why.)

In my opinion, Marino's best opponent was Norman Walsh, however in my era I also think that Geoff Portz and Johnny Allan would have been good opponents too.

Congratulations to Main Mask for a thread that had gone past the 100 mark. It takes some doing and who would have thought this one could have got there when it was initiated.

I have been racking my brains on one question. If most of us feel not quite convinced about Marino's entertainment value , Who wold have been your choice of an ideal opponent for him if we were match maker.

I think the ideal match would be with Billy Howes.

While I don't doubt he was professional Anglo, my point was as to why a man approaching his 60th Birthday, before he sadly died, was holding multiple belts and titles, how was that helping the credibility of the sport? Combat sports are a young man's game.

I fully understand Marino being given work/dates for the reasons you say; hard working, reliable, maybe a good influence in the dressing room, maybe happy to pass on his experience to younger lads.

But a World Champion at 59? No, he must have bought the belts/titles, somehow.

Similar to Brian Maxine, who was also a belt wearing champ at 60, there must have been some ownership involved.

Just my opinion, of course.

He was a professional wrestler and very professional. This meant wrestling 5 or 6 nights a week and always showing up. Good enough to face all-comers. In professional wrestling, if you are good in your youth and behaved professionally, you were guaranteed work until you were sixty.

Compare with Albert Wall who was a frantic British Champion in 1972, wrestling everywhere and even more than McManus on tv. But he blew himself out and was gone two years later.

Professional is the key word and Mike Marino was undisputedly this.

Just thinking about how long Mike Marino held onto his title(s) for, and the assumption of it being because he was popular with the rest of the industry and a good servant to it.

Is it possible that, in fact, Mike Marino "owned" the belt and title, similar to Count Bartelli and his Commonwealth title?

The World Mid Heavyweight title lineage, during Mike Marino's life, was mainly held (on multiple occasions) by three men; Mike Demitre, Norman Walsh and Mike Marino.

Demitre is the title holder in 1947, loses it that same year to George Broadfield, then wins it back, two years later, in 1949. He holds onto the belt until 1954 when he loses it to Norman Walsh, who loses it to Black Butcher Johnson a year later, in 1955, who loses it back to Mike Demitre in the same year.

In 1958 Demitre loses the belt for the last time, to Mike Marino, who loses it to Vic Hessle, who loses it to Norman Walsh, all in the same year.

In 1960, Mike Marino wins the belt back from Norman Walsh, loses it back to Walsh in 1961 and then regains it the same year.

He holds the belt to 1964, loses it to Judo Al Hayes, then wins it back in 1969 and holds it until his death in 1981.

During those years he worked for Joint Promotions, Paul Lincoln, then back to Joint, and Joint (as we know) was run by various promoters, then the Hurst Park Syndicate, then William Hill and then Max Crabtree. It appears none of them forced him into surrendering his belts to anyone else, and upon his death was holding the World, European, Empire (Commonwealth) etc.

So I guess my question, again, is, did he actually own any of those belts outright?

As for was he over rated, I never saw him in his prime, only saw him live once, and I was very young, and mainly remember him for clean, technical bouts.

Some valid points there Bill.

Possibley over rated as a wrestler,but much loved by many people as a performer.When pitted against a villain he always had the crowd (well 95% of them) on his side.World Champ? No.Danny Hodge was mentioned earlier in the thread,he would have beaten Mike in about 35 secs.(IMO) in a "real" contest.

But he was not (IMO) over-rated due to the fact that he could do what was needed to create an entertaining match when in with the right opponent.Just my 10 pennorth.

Not sure if we have the complete answer as to why in 1949/50 he hit the ground running. We know he stayed there because of his position. He must have had something to be where he was from 1949-1961.

I assume he got a position with Dale Martins after 1966. Is it possible he was influential with Dale Martins in the 1950's.

Was he just that good with his ring craft and his general look.

I am won over. A Hall of Fame wrestler for sure for me.

I never aid that Mike Marino was not popular.

Did he draw the crowds? Yes because as an Italian or as a Golden Greek, with a well built athletic figure he cut a glamorous figure in post war Newcastle anyway.

But in my opinion, he was overrated as a wrestler.

For all the titles that he held, he had ringcraft, but no great power and no submission hold speciality.

This was in his younger days.

In his later years I think that DM held him in great respect and favoured him for his loyalty .

Once again just my opinion.

I have seen in a wrestling fanzine that I once read and on a wrestling title history website that Mike Marino first won the World Mid-Heavyweight world title in 1957, beating Mike De Mitre. Between 1957 and 1961 the title changed hands a few times between Mike Marino, Vic Hessle and Norman Walsh before Mike, as world title holder joined Paul Lincoln promotions in 1961. He then lost and re-won the title to Judo Al Hayes before re-joining Joint Promotions, as the world champion.

Regarding him being over-rated, I must admit I wasn't too impressed by him when I first started watching wrestling in 1977 but I now know that he was about 54 years old and probably well past his best. I bet that he was a much more impressive wrestler in the 1950's and 60's.

I guess it all comes down to what was meant in the original question by over-rated. Over rated as a shooter? How would we know? Anyway professional wrestling wasn't about being a great shooter. There was much more involved in being a great wrestler. It wasn't just about one aspect. Pallo was a colourful wrestler and we loved to watch him. Over rated as a showmar never, but as a shooter well, yes, he never claimed to be anything of the sort. McManus was a great villain who could anger us and pull in the punters. But again, was he a great shooter? Probably not. Would we say they were over-rated? Unlikely. Assirati is often cited as a great shooter. But a great pro wrestler? Well,the promoters who shunned him didn't seem to think so. So, was he over-rated?

If Mike was over-rated, in what way? BKendo1 will know better than any of us if Mike was a great pro wrestler, and he tells us he was, agile and aggressive. Was he a crowd puller? Seemingly yes, in some halls at least. I guess that in the south familiarity may have bred contempt, but he was always a welcome addition in the north.

Mike had the qualities of a great pro wrestler. Look at his career. Exactly why he was given "a push" from the start we don't know, but in December 1949 he is said to be unbeaten in Italy and Britain. Nonsense maybe, but it's the fact that promoters were promoting him in this way that is significant. By October 1949 he's a champion; Light Heavyweight Champion of Italy. That's only a couple of years after turning professional, and the newspaper report states he had the speed and cunning to beat three stones heavier Pat O'Keefe by two falls to nil. I'm sure that Marino would have grown up in a neighbourhood surrounded by wrestlers (Joe D'Orazio was a cousin) but that wouldn't have been enough to give him this sort of push. It might have got him a foot in the door, but promoters were only interested in making money so not too many favours. Promoters knew he was a good worker, popular with fans and reliable. We know that Mike was an established Joint Promotions wrestler during the 1950s. But then look what happened in 1962. Mike jumped ship and went to work with his pal Paul Lincoln in opposition to his old masters. Surely the end? But this wasn't the end. When Lincoln was absorbed into Dale Martin in 1966 Mike Marino was back. It was no doubt part of the deal that Lincoln's partners Hunter, Hayes and Marino were taken on by Dale Martin (along with a load of other Lincoln men). But Dale Martin could have cut down his bookings, lowered him down on the bill and quietly shunted him out. Did they? Definitely not. He was back on their books as World Champion, bill topper, tv star and then to top it all he is given the job as matchmaker. Doesn't sound like he was over-rated, does it?

You might not want to name the MC BKendo1. Just tell us.. was it the one we all think it was?

Sorry Anglo I went off subject it was an mc who really meant to say he was always objective but actually said he was always objectionable and all present agreed.

Yes, Ron, Main Mask has certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons with this thread; probably because it's unanswerable and the question has to remain: over-rated by whom?

The Matassa bout was 1953 and so old it was speeded up like a Charlie Chaplin film, not sure if that was all Marino energy. If anything, I felt Marino was over-acting there.

I can't understand your last point Bkendo: who was allegedly objectionable? Surely not Mike???

Mike was a necessary cushion. Norman Walsh beat the world champion; Kendo Nagasaki beat the world champion. The overal tapestry was rich.

I think unmasked Nagasaki spoke lovingly about Mike - also the Croydon story - and we should be thankful. He catapulted from being the most silent wrestler to being the most forthcoming which is what we wanted, isn't it? In his book and in his talk, he tends to limit himself to snippets of anecdotes and generalisations like these rather than the nitty-gritty of working with Marino, Bruno, or, I seem to recall, the real probelms with working with Terry O'Neill.

I must own up to one thing , I had never looked at Mike Marino in so much detail.

Some brilliant analysis ebbing and flowing and I have had another look on Youtube with great nostalgia and more admiration than perhaps I had previously.

Mike was never bad for me , just lacked a little bit extra that I quantified by him needing a submission speciality.

I am convinced now , and Marino has gone up in my estimation.

A very very good worker and servant to Wrestling.

Not sure about this but didn't Assirati give him the cauliflowers.

No he was not overated ill try and be objective not sentimental.Watch the pathe newsreel of Mike against matassa and you will see the same puzzled look after being thrown but it's a more agile and aggressive Mike.Did he put bums on seats yes Martin Conroy always said he was very popular at halls like Bolton and Southport and at stadium Liverpool.Dempsey felt he was more appreciated down south perhaps the reverse was true in mikes case.i think Nagasaki was disrespectful in the collect Mike comments but when u ain't spoken for decades you're bound to make errors.as Anglo rightly points out Mike was battle scarred you don't get that through being carried.Matey Dave makes valid points about age. I hope it been objective in my views.on a lighter note I remember a certain mc holding forth in the Wolverhampton dressing room saying he was always objectionable in everything he did oh how right he was.

Of course I value your opinion from afar, Main Mask. But we just don't know.

Mike looked like a battered angel on a coffin. You don't get like that for nothing. I heard he liked a good scrap.

And in one of the books doesn't he pull two guys apart in the dressing room saying "Only fight for money."

You go back to comparing Marino with Nagasaki. But I repeat, there was a 20-year age gap. That same dynamic 1970 Nagasaki was pretty immobile come 1990 with Blondie taking the bumps. To be clear about it: Marino aged much much better than Nagasaki and kept on going until nearly sixty, performing acceptable bouts, all his own work. 55-y-o Marino v 55-y-o Nagasaki - who'd win?

Going on from that and the near obsession on this site over many years with shooters, and Wiganite shooters.

It's almost as if you couldn't be a shooter if you weren't from Wigan. This is clearly a bit far-fetched.

Dale Martin had a businesslike approach to wrestling: attractive posters and bills; reliable workers; variety.

Dale Martin never let the complication of shooting ability get in the way of making money. But it stands to reason that many Dale Martin wrestlers must have also been shooters when they wanted to be, and Mike Marino mysteriously fits into this category.

Tibor and Gordon Nelson were probably others but it is admittedly difficult to identify home-bred shooters. Harry Kendall, from Brixton itself, was probably one, but he never exactly hit the heights. Maybe Mancelli had been?

Maybe Mike Marino was King of the Hill?

An interesting thread that has evolved from a simple answer to what appeared a simple question to something that has gain begun to investigate the workings of the wrestling business.

Anglo Italian rightly offers caution as he reminds us that most of us only watched Mike from the second half of the 1960s when he may well have been past his prime. We do have the valued opinion of Bernard, though, who opts for a definite over rated opinion after watching Mike in the 1950s. But then Bernard had Norman Walsh as a yardstick, and Bernard really did rate Norman.

Mike may well have been faster and a bit more agile in the 1950s, but surely he would not have had any more flair or charisma. But that wasn't what made him valued by the promoters. The Golden Boy tag had to take care of the colour. When it came to wrestling he was pretty ordinary, though as fans we are in no position to judge just how good he was. But then that didn't matter too much. A wrestler was as good as he was allowed to be, getting the results that the promoter decreed he should. Far more important was reliability, turning up and putting on a show when and where expected, and protecting the integrity of the business. The latter depended on loyalty to everyone else involved and, in the case of champions, an ability to protect the integrity of the championship in the event of some upstart wanting to take advantage of his opportunity. I've no doubt we can assume Mike was dependable and good enough to take care of himself and protect the belt.

Link to a relevant earlier topic

https://heritagedocs.wixsite.com/talkwrestling/forum/memories-of-the-old-days/mike-marino-titles-1950s-60s-70s

Bernard, it has been established that Marino and Walsh had numeous bouts. Walsh was frequently winning up north. For his fans, an angle would be that he should be allowed to challenge for Marino's title; not having that title bout would seem unfair. That's all.

call me a silly billy but did any of you carrying on about michael harrison being over rated ever see him in his prime. just remember that wrestling was in his blood and the sound of the crowds feed him. if he retired what would he have done. just remember he used to put bums on seats

Hi Ron, don't apologise, 1959 was after Walsh's accident. As I said previously Walsh held sway up North and Marino down South.

Now Anglo---Injustice.

Please can you explain to a simpleton like me, what episode of this thread you are talking about with MM beating NW and not getting the title.

It's late and I can't find that article or bill..

I see the spelling of Chic in England is +K!

Good point, Main Mask. MM was earmarked for success early on and by all his promoters. He must just simply have been a good shooter (if these were allowed outside Wigan)

For some reason Mike was always destined for the very top as far as his promoter was concerned.

I will show you the evidence of a very early shot at the world title before the days of Norman Walsh holding it. I have searched far and wide , Exeter , Belfast , Aberdeen , and now I give you Cardiff early 1950.

Mike was on his way to the top. It has been incredible to figure out so much in this team effort.

The Belfast match with Two Rivers was meant to be April 1961.

I reckon Marino left Joint in December 1961 and was away for about 4 years.

In that time it is hard to say that Joint had another World Mid-heavy champ.

What I can tell you is that in November 1962 they held a match at Kings Hall Belfast to decide the Mid heavy World Title. It featured Bill Howes as Euro Champ and Norman Walsh as British Champ.

Howes was 28 and Walsh 32. Had Joint left it a year to see if Marino would come back.

Whatever it was a fudge , they spun it out over six rounds for the fight to end with both men among the audience and being counted out.

A return bout was mooted but I cannot find it.

While Marino was away I notice Walsh v Howes went round the country although I am not claiming title matches.

When was that title next mentioned ?????

Great stuf Ron and Main Mask. Truly developing this thread in fascinating ways.

If Mike says he started out in 1950 (aged 30), he could well have dabbled beforehand as Ron has shown. But I wonder if he had wrestled under a different name? I would think this is quite likely. Would be a bit odd to dive right in and become the Golden Boy. Must have learnt his trade somewhere, sometime.

I wonder what Bernard thinks about Norman being billed from Perth?

Just seen Main masks latest comments further back in the thread due to the way the REPLY feature works on here.

Quote

Just found an Interview given by MARINO in my Archives RON in 1961- right after his Defence

of his WORLD MID-HEAVYWEIGHT Title against MARIO MATASSA in BELFAST!

He states he took this Title off NORMAN WALSH-sorry BERNARD-in 1959-but NO specific Date given!-He also says his Professional Debut was in JUNE 1950!

Apparently also he was out of Wrestling for Months in early 1962 after a Ring Injury became

infected!!-At the same time he says he was also having Legal 'Problems'!!

There's a Photo with him wearing yet ANOTHER Different Title Strap!! (World!)

I wonder who makes this all up , I have bills for Marino in 1948 and he won Paris in 1949

Interesting that you mention Belfast Main Mask as I find title matches even there.

Marino actually defended his title against Walsh in Belfast (Kings Hall) in February 1961. he was behind and got an equalizing fall in the 12th round to keep the title.

You have to hand it to both of them for such a big performance and it takes my own list into the 20's for times I have them working together.

That was not all , they had also wrestled at the Ulster hall in 1960 in what was a return contest so that is at least three times in Belfast. Bill does not mention anyone being champion.

A 1956 visit of Marino to Belfast indicates that Mike had already had a taste of being World Champ by that date. I will go with main mask though , a likely passing of the batton would be 1959.

Certainly, Main Mask. I find the discussion fascinating, as in a thread like this we once again get to the very core of professional wrestling.

I hope my thoughts don't come across a trying to be definitive, it's just the way I see it at the moment and I am enjoying your passion, too. We shared the passion 50 years ago, haha.

Yep, it could have been better. But wanting it to be better just by having More of everything can't be right. My ongoing insistence is not to apply too much hindsight just because we know so much now. We needed the opening bouts of Dick Conlon versus Robby Baron. We needed Syd knocked out through the middle of the ropes in Round 5 of the closing bout to send everyone home happy.

A Mike Marino Golden Boy was a necessary figure in so many of those main event bouts. So what if the logic wasn't 100% right in those Mid-Heavyweight bouts with Howes and Robin and Norman Walsh.

Mind you, I never saw him in one of those bouts so maybe I should reel myself in ...

Exactly Main Mask. What you said is true and what happened. While McManus, Marino, Logan, Bruno, Royal and Kellett were around, Joint Promotions continued to fill halls.This didn't build a future but it did work well into the seventies and well into their fifties.

The business did indeed go to the wall.

But we are discussing Mike Marino here and seeing how he fitted into the mosaic. He did his bit, played his role.

The whole held together, in retrospect in spite of incredible, truly incredible, fragility.

This thread could degenerate into another "Where did it all go wrong?", of which we have had loads. Or just consider Mike Marino.

I return to the title: "Was Mike Marino over-rated?" I asked the question "by whom?" I can't agree with blaming the promoters. We were the ones (mugs?) who went along with it, bought our tickets and, at that time, believed what was fed to us. Mike and the promoters were clever enough to package up something we bought.

The injustice I wanted to describe, Bernard, was Newcastle fans seeing Norman beat the World Champion but not getting the title.

It seems to me that we are picking over the bones here. But what we are describing worked perfectly well nationwide and on tv 1952 to 1977 with bits either side.

I certainly agree that we can "Look Back in Laughter", we know so much now. We can pick holes in it all: Geo. Kidd's ball, McManus's ears, Kwango's head-butt, Vic Faulkner making his opponent look up, Syd launching himself through the ropes to a knockout, the Irish Whip, Billy Torontos - and any number of aged bill-toppers. But at the time it all worked and filled halls.

If we want to start knocking it, the whole thing will crumble. It was a work, theatre, unreal ....

Sorry Anglo ,your first sentence did not make sense to me. What Injustice?

Also " they must have got it right, as they got away with it for 30 years."

How long did DM get away with it with Mick McManus?

In my opinion, at that time, Walsh would always beat Marino "in a straight fight", which we know know it wouldn't be. So we get the situation where Walsh wins in the North and Marino in the South.

That's the injustice.

Precisely as Bernard says.

Norman Walsh beat the World Champion on home turf and all the Newcastle fans could go crazy at the injustice.

N'Boa the Snakeman mistreated the World Champion - just goes to show what a great technical wrestler he really was.

Bruno Elrington could manage a draw with the world champion, giving 5 stones. Goes to show Bruno wasn't just Beard & Bluster.

Lethargic Logan could also draw with the World Champion when giving weight - gee that Logan must be so much better than he looks.

Marino set the bar. His role was to be rather neutral. All the others could do their antics alongside a straight wrestling World Champion.

And for his part, as for many others in wrestling, we just suspended the belief about his age and thought "Oh he must be much younger than those swarthy Italian features make him look."

Personally I think the promoters got it right. Rememebering his key attributes of being a reliable traveller and one who could wrestle with the best (eg Luther Lindsay).

They must have got it right as they got away with it for thirty years.

For me, it was Marino v Tibor where it all went wrong if it was top-of-the-bill. But even this was necessary to balance Marino's bouts.

I saw Walsh v Marino quite a few times at Newcastle.

I don't remember Marino ever winning, but of course we now know that in Newcastle ,against local boy Walsh, this was not going to happen especially in a title match

I think that you will find that Marino did not "get" a midheavy title until after Walsh was injured ina bad car crash.

Even then after recuperation I think that Norman Walsh took the title back again.

Walsh then fell out with Joint and went elsewhere and so lost his title . Marino inherited it, even though he was not a patch on Portz or Johnny Allan in my opinion.

The promoters always held sway.

I think you are bang on there Anglo , and at the end of the day Marino has provided a very interesting thread.

Hang about! Just looking at this week's magazine reminds me of Mike Marino's multiple bouts with Billy Robinson - scarcely a pleasure. All credible, presumably.

And Ron has him topping the bill here and giving 5 stones to Prince Kumali.

The man was a technician who could wrestle clean and straight and let all the others shine in their shows. But he could do it.

We are too harsh if we discredit him now. He clearly did it all in the fifties and just stuck around like McManus and Kellett into the seventies. Not Mike's fault if the promoters weren't bringing on newbiues.

A great shame if we discredit Kellett, Logan, Pallo, Bruno, McManus, Marino and the ever-youthful Masambula because of their seventies work in their fifties. Just because we can't remember them making their names 25 years earlier.

Nagasaki talks disparagingly on his video about "Come-and-get-me Mike" but Mike was twenty years his senior. In 1990, Nagasaki was only too pleased to have Blondie Bob take the bumps at an age when Mike Marino was still taking his own.

Go Mike!

Jan 18th 1960....still Norman Walsh !!!!!!!!!

But were Wryton up to date.....did they care !!!!!!!!

The write up for the Aberdeen bill states that Marino was Junior Heavyweight Champ of the World.

Here we are in 1961 and Marino has left joint , but he's having that title.

Great stuff, Main Mask! Alan Garfield at mid-heavyweight - whatever next.

So there were all sorts of things going on in the fifties to spice up Mike's career, and of course the various Joint Promotions members varied amongst themselves.

With no interent and little press coverage, the whole tapestry probably looked generally legit.

I agree with the general consensus that Mike Marino was not entirely worthy of all the plaudits accorded to him, but when I first saw him around 1962 when he was in his early forties, he was a very skilful performer, if lacking in charisma. In common with some wrestlers of the post war era, he probably went on a little too long. This is common in many aspects of life so one should not be too critical.

I was told, and this may be open to conjecture, that Mike was well established in the Dale Martin hierarchy which may account for his longevity prior to his very sad demise.

Dale Martin worked hard to prove the Italy Championship was legit. The 1955 bout showing it existed.

And although in 1949 Marino won an open tournament in Paris , his first capture of the official jr Heavyweight title (Europe) was this bill in 1957 at Newcastle. He got a KO against Norman Walsh.

I do believe he dropped it the next month.

Walsh put his World title on the line against Marino who was now Europe.

Maybe we just need to take a deep breath and remind ourselves what a work it ALL was.

A glittering cv needed many many years of service, attending halls far and wide without no-showing. Making creative bouts and balancing ego with necessary personal status,

A reminder to us all of what theatre this was is that Mike was regularly billed from Italy. If there were any substance to the whole show, his true heritage would have come out - I mean, to be world champion! But for 25 minutes a night, it was enough that he looked like a stereotypical Italian.

Ron's research is great, but to rustle all this up in 12 hours -- unbelievable.

Looks like Mike's titles only evolved late fifties. I imagine his ringcraft was such that he didn't need titles earlier as he could work these great bouts with such variety and creativity. Then, ageing, and probably having lost his ooomph to build creative matches and take the related bumps, just being billed as a champion was enough and he was guaranteed status and work for the next twenty years. We know that Dale Martin were very loyal employers to reliable employees and many went on and on and on.

With some more digging I found close to 20 bouts with Walsh and Marino. They started as early as 1949 at Newcastle.

Down in Worthing in 1955 Marino won by K.O. with Walsh acting silly.

A match in Aberdeen in 1953 , Marino also retired Walsh with a Boston. in 1955 there , they did a double K.0.

Found them minimum 5 times at Aberdeen , 5 times at Liverpool and probably 5 at Newcastle in 1957-58 alone. Seems at some stage Marino may have got Europe title off Walsh to set up a Euro Champ V World Champ match

Morecambe was a good place to take it too as a headliner.

They met at least 8 times in 1957-58 and were still at it as late as 1961.

Don't seem to have took their show to Belle Vue.

It is my bet they met as many as 50 times and must have got on well , two good pro's , even conceding defeats on their own territory.

Big question is , was Bernard at this match in 1949. And note they were light heavyweights back then.

In 1953 they were then billed as Heavies.....Bet Bernard was at that one.

Walsh beat Marino above.........................................................And above bout a no contest.

Way back in 1952 I have Walsh beating Marino.

The sell was that Marino turned up with an infected wound in his leg.

Walsh mercilessly played on it and made Mike Quit. Round 3.

Fast forward to 1958 , again at Aberdeen Walsh rings a submission out of Marino and Marino , pressing him hard got knocked out , so a real pasting.

Working for Dale Martins this time and the same month , Marino dished out a pasting and ended up with an unconscious Walsh on top of him and could not escape in time so it was a double K.O.

Are we not lucky to have so much newspaper coverage of something so long ago.

I don't think anyone is being disrespectful. It's only right that we give our Frank opinions.

Remember that photo of all seven British champions from about 1958? All Wiganites. Mostly dour. Something was going on there that we haven't quite pinned down.

It seems like Dale Martin were left with World and Regional champions to play with and Mike was perhaps their most Wiganlike. Though Paul Lincoln may be the one who made him World Champion?

Personally I always envisaged Andy Robin and Billy Howes in some kind of Mid-Heavyweight championship merry-go-round. Marino's titles never were clear, he seemed to fluctuate from one to two to three. But he never got Andy's title.

Can anyone else remember at the time reading about an American claimant to Mike's world title, a certain Danny Hodge. Of course, we hoped he'd come. But he didn't.

Bernard, as we all know, you are the Norman Walsh Fan Club. Obviously the same weight class. Did you ever see Mike versus Norman? How would they have fared against each other?

My pleasure Mate, it would be a boring world (and forum) if we all agreed. :)

As a fan of Mike Marino I have to say I think its fair enough to ask if he was over rated. Wrestling was a sport (well sort of...) and if you put yourself in the public eye then people are entitled to debate your ability/credibility. Its not personal as I think we'd all agree Mike did a lot for wrestling, whether or not he was as good as DM made him out to be is a fair enough question and not in any way disrespectful. People will always differ in their opinions and that's what makes a forum like this interesting.

I only saw him in the twilight of his career so made my statements on what I saw, what was he like in his prime?

Yes Anglo, I think the promoters were wrong . Mike Marino was a good servant to DM and they looked after him well.

They kept him at the top when there were plenty of good wrestlers that they could have pushed more.

By the way, I don't necessarily agree with all of the things said against Marino in this thread.I simply gave my view of what he was like in the earlier days.

Thanks for putting Rocco on hold, MM, and replying that the promoters over-rated the other MM we are discussing. That implies the promoters were wrong.

A bit too much hindsight in this thread, I think. We all went along with Mike being world champion and happily and passively mused that he must have been phenomenal in all his bouts ... that we weren't witnessing. The promoters didn't get it wrong. They correctly assessed his credibility and served him up to us over decades in a hardly changing format. We put up with it, because we never revolted. The protestations are a bit late now.

You went on to say that to make it in wrestling you have to be different. But it's an ensemble cast and the likes of Tibor and Mike and Al Nicol and Mick McMichael and Peter Szakacs were essential to make the whole show plausible. If everyone had been different it would have been a farce.

In the years I was taking it all so seriously I certainly needed these doses of sobriety to convince myself of some pretty unbelievable antics I was seeing in other bouts.

And all the fans who loved booing the baddies (though they probably paid especially to see them) needed the Golden Boys to convince themselves that they were righteous clean-minded fans and citizens.

let us not forget that michael harrison was still wrestling when he was 59 when he died. we don't really know how long michael had been suffering from leukaemia. the could still put bums on seat and it was obvious the other wrestler looked after him. most of the armchair only some him when turned 40 and not when he was at his peak. he did not start wrestling until nearly 30 and was good. age slows us and he was pushing his body. have a bit of respect for somebody who kept going going until death rang the bell

Well poor old Mike. There he was, part of our wrestling family for years and years and years and years and years, always an impeccable pro and, as Ron says part of the establishment.

But I do agree with the opinions expressed; he never seemed anything special to me and did nothing in the ring to deserve holding that belt for so long. He was good at spilling a bit of blood I'll give him that.

I don't think we should be too negative. He could certainly wrestle, was a hard man no doubt. Credit for what he was, but the question was whether he was over-rated. The length of his title reign, the drooling of Kent Walton and that ridiculous Golden Boy label in his middle age means that i have to say yes. Sorry Golden Boy.

Never saw Mike defend his title but I did once see him ask a big mouth in the crowd who was giving him and his opponent a hard time if he'd like to climb into the ring for a fight. Needless to say the punter suddenly lost his voice.

I have to speak up for Mike, I enjoyed his fights even if he wasn't in the big league.

Who "over-rated" him?

He did nothing in the ring to justify the status of the mythical world championship (was it ever defended?), he was very pedestrian wrestler certainly not exciting and wonder how he was considered a crowd drawer. Never saw him live and wonder if his non televised bouts were any better than the TV bouts?

Several big name wrestlers were over rated particularly those who dragged on long after their sell by date

Hmmm … I hear what you say but it would be hard to remember those great days without a Mike Marino bout or two.

The Royal Bros were the most over rated in my humble opinion. zzzzzzzzzzz

I could say-one word.-----Yes !

Even in his early days before DM kept him at the top.

Good accomplished wrestler providing his opponent went with him.

No Venom, no fire. not a lot of charisma and as stated before no compelling submission hold.

Certainly in the matches that survive on You Tube he was very over rated. Mostly bland minimal risk and predictable

Seen Mike in some good ones and also some tame stuff.

It was a long career and I don't know the magnitude of his performance as The Golden Boy.

Similar to McManus he was part of the establishment and so the script was that he was unlikely to lose.

I could never believe that because he was (kayfabe) World Mid Heavy Champ that he could survive against all the big heavies , I just could not buy it.

A great servant though and well travelled for the good of wrestling.

What he lacked for me was a really nasty submission move that we could believe rather than Pin Fall Trickery.

Would have much rather seen him fight people like Howes , Ginsburg , Streiger than Albert Wall or Mal Kirk.