Dear Friends, to the best of my understanding this Dale Martin match which was billed for the British Heavyweight title was NOT conducted under the Lord Mount Evans Rules of professional wrestling, hence cannot be considered as title change. By the way after this match Baldwin still had his Lord Mount Evans silver championship belt and yes he still was the reigning British heavyweight champion according to the Lord Mount Evans Rules. Thanks.
In reply to Mark and Ruslan, and anyone else interested .
Yes, Joint Promotions was a bona fide company. The company papers can be purchased from Companies House, and I have them from 1952 until the company was dissolved.
Formed on 6th March, 1952 with a nominal capital of £1,000. Registered offices in Toller Lane, Bradford. Directors were Walter Leonard Beresford, Norman Morrell, George Frederick henry de Relwyskow and Arthur Lawrence wright. Secretary was George Neville Riley.
John George Abbey (Dale) was added as a Director on 20th January, 1953.
The company was struck off the Register of Companies on 27th October, 1992.
RON HISTORYO....Time Cop,
3h
In truth , it's just a guess , I don't have a clue.
And Ron has hit the nail on the head. None of us have a clue, which is why it is misleading to make definitive statements. In fairness to Ruslan he does cite evidence in support of the statements he makes, as in this case that there were written rules that I would say were not born out in reality. The real danger of piecing together wrestling's history are others that put forward their unsupported views and think that by repeating them they are creating history.
I can't give the reasons why but I think JP was a question of Dominance. In imaginative terms Norman Morrell was perhaps the Alpha male and called the most shots. My guess , Dales got to run a very big patch indeed and had the freedom to do it..
On the whole each Zone got to see more than a smattering of the best wrestlers that the others had. Some rarely traveled and some imports worked almost exclusively for the Promoter that brought them in.
Or was it just a case of , If there was a vote , the north could out vote the South.
I have often thought, Wryton had a Roster , but it linked well with Riley and Atherton , in turn Morrell's Stable blended in with them and Vica Versa. But what about Relwyskow. Did he even have a Roster. He just seemed to use Northern Wrestlers and had other territories.
If essentially he always borrowed wrestlers , then would he not always back up Morrell in anything he wanted.
In truth , it's just a guess , I don't have a clue.
Was JP a legitimate company or was it just some sort of gentlemens agreement? Surely if Dale Martin were paid up members of JP they would have the same champions.
ruslan-pashayev
7h
Replying to
Hack
Hack, thank you. The ME Rules I cited here are real. Thanks to The Ost several years ago he kindly shared them with me and I studied them enough and double checked everything on several occasions. Yes, all ME title changes would have happened on these particular conditions (specified above the number of rounds and etc) or those were not title matches, i.e. title wasn't involved. Interim wording is obviously a statement that whomever were organizers of this match DO NOT recognize Baldwin as champion despite him being an official ME Champ with a silver ME belt around his waist. It's that simple. I see no confusion. Regardless who won this particular game the ME TITLE WAS NOT AT STAKE in this match. This is what I meant to say by making this post. Thank you. R
Thanks Ruslan. I don't doubt that these were genuine Mountevans rules.
But however many times you repeat that a title match could only be held under these conditions doesn't make it a reality. You can see who the organisers were. This was a Dale Martin Promotion. This was a Joint Promotion show. Mountevans rules were exclusive to Joint Promotions
And here, after Baldwin lost, is Assirati as champion. But to be honest Ruslan, it means little, because I could give you examples of Baldwin billed as champion. We'll never untangle the champions because it wasn't a black and white picture, it was shades of grey. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't try to record them, just that we acknowledge the discrepancies.
True words Peter, though I probably won't be here to find out if you're right (always hopeful). Ruslan made a valid comment ,the difficulty I see being in making it in such an uncompromising way, i.e. "the title was NOT under the Lord Mount Evans Rules" and he "still was the reigning British heavyweight champion."
For me the problem is trying to apply black and white facts to a situation where there were only shades of grey. Neither fans or promoters seemed to give much value to titles. It doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility to me that a title match would be held over ten minute rounds whatever the rules said. The rules and the champions were what the promoter told us on that day. Assirati and Baldwin did find themselves billed as champion after this match, but such discrepancies were not unknown throughout Joint Promotion history - we had two European mid heavyweight champions for years, and in the mid 1960s there was a lot of confusion for a couple of months about the British heavyweight title. We are all experienced enough to know that with wrestling the truth is the truth and a fact is a fact only until the next truth or fact comes along. A good find Ruslan, thanks for bringing it to our attention, but whilst it's another sign that Joint Promotion members didn't always play by their own rules and that there were tensions amongst the group, serious ones at times, but I don't agree that it shows Assirati was not heavyweight champion or that Dale Martin did not accept Joint Promotion authority.
Just on that issue of titles and their value. I have an agenda for a Joint Promotions meeting at Kirkgate Chambers, I think early seventies. Championships was on the agenda. In the notes was a list of current champions and weight divisions. Maybe the Promoters needed telling, but I'm sure no decent fan of the time would.
As for use of that word "interim" I can't explain that. Seems very odd. But if it's used in the way I think Ruslan means then the poster would actually be saying "This title thingie is fixed and we will show it by taking the title off him."
The very fact that this is under discussion seventy years later is a tribute both wrestlers. Hard to imagine anyone discussing AEW matches of today in seventy years time
Erm, Ruslan, that's hardly convincing. You dismiss matches where Assirati was billed as champion and totally disregard that Dale Martin were the biggest Joint Promotion member and at the very moment you say DM did not recognise Joint Promotions they were negotiating a contract on their behalf. Dale Martin had signed up as Directors of Joint Promotions in 1953, as recorded in Companies House.
Use of the word "interim" in the way you interpret it would mean DM were advertising that the result was predetermined.
Again, what is the source of these Mountevans rules Ruslan? This section about rounds is not in my copy of the rule book and may have been added later.
As for the result John. I can only find unofficial fans records that Assirati won, can't find anything in the papers.
Maybe Mike Hallinan can shed some light on this.
Does anybody know the actual result of this match between Assirati and Baldwin. I think that I have read somewhere that Assirati won but was it 2 falls to one fall, a knock-out or something else?
ruslan-pashayev
"I think after his match v Assirati Baldwin was still the ME champ and a belt holder."
Fair enough Ruslan, but what makes you think this?
ruslan-pashayev
"in 1955 DM did NOT recognize JPs authority in British pro wrestling."
We've often discussed the tensions amongst Joint Promotions members. But by 1955 Dale Martin had been members of Joint Promotions for two years. Three weeks after this match Dale Martin were responsible for matchmaking and promoting the first ITV televised show on behalf of Joint Promotions. I think that to say they did not recognise JP authority is a step too far.
You're in need of a reply Ruslan, so I'll give you one though I don't think it will satisfy you. There were no certainties anywhere in British wrestling. The Mountevans rules began to evolve from the start, the weight divisions used in practice differed from the ones agreed in 1947. I'd be interested in the source of your Mountevans rules, the rule book I have doesn't specify required rounds. During the 1960s and 70s some Mountevans British title matches were fifteen rounds, but not all. By 1955 Dale Martin were part of Joint Promotions so you would expect champions to be nationally recognised. I guess if Dale Martin said their title match was over six ten minute rounds there would be no one to stop them. The answer would lie in who was billed as champion afterwards? As is to be expected the adverts give scant reference to a title holder, be it Assirati or Baldwin. People might be interested in watching Assirati or Baldwin, not whether they were a champion. Your match is 19th October, 1955. During the remainder of the year I did find reference (in Scotland) to Balswin as ex champion, but no reference to Assirati as champion. In January and February 1956 I found both Baldwin and Assirati advertised as champion.
As for Peter's question. The championship reports in our weekly This Week In Wrestling article are based on genuine reports from the time. These demonstrate that it wasn't unknown for a title match to go the full fifteen rounds.
How often did a championship match go anywhere near fifteen rounds of five minutes?