50 Greatest British Wrestlers of All-Time

I agree, Peter, and - as Anglo has touched on - we can only go with our own perspectives.

I've now realised that, if I include John Saint I really need to include Steve Grey and Mal Sanders...

Difficult for any of us to judge.All time is a very long time

I've been lurking, but this is a b****y good site that stands up well against any fan site on any topic. My middle initial stands for 'Melvin'...

< Was Ken Joyce British-born? >

I always assumed so, but only because he and Doug were from Rushden (with love). When he spoke on his 'retirement' from the ring, he sounded Northants.; but you know better than I.

< Including one Yorkshire Terrier and not the more prolific other one is surprising.>

Yeah, I was admittedly in two minds about this, and broke the rule by basing it on his surprising success abroad. I did mention Mick McMick, but should perhaps exclude both in favour of Preston. (BTW one of these for tag teams should be interesting :) ) .

< But a list like this without Alan Garfield. Seriously? >

Admit to professing ignorance. Only saw AG once in late career, when Pat Roach went over.

< Johnny Kwango >

He was allegedly (admittedly by M. Crabtree) professional in terms of honouring bookings, etc. While I was never into the headbutting-the-hand shtick, he seemed high-profile in terms of Albert Hall appearances, etc. I'm leaving him in.

< Mike Marino >

Prestige as perceived by promoters. Stays in.

< Steve Logan >

Seemingly rock 'ard. Stays in.

< Alf Marquette and Leon Arras and Mal Kirk all well worth a shout >

Have to admit that Marquette totally passed me by until his book came out.

Re- Arras, I was thinking 'Surely he's foreign'? until I twigged: yes, Glover had slipped down a crack and deserves to be in.

Mal's rating is (unfairly) affected by all the jobbing he did for Daddy, literally to the death.

< who signed gracious autographs. >

I think this sort of thing should add to their score, as should shoot ability and the fact that some have paid their dues, jobbing for years before getting a push.

< Sir Atholl >

He was mentioned above, so I put him in (you always used to laugh at my stuff on the old Grappling website :D ). Oakley out, Arras in.

Thanks, Anglo. Respect - Dave (Melvin M. Melvin)

Was Ken Joyce British-born? Was all that "newly arrived from Canada" stuff just baloney?

Including one Yorkshire Terrier and not the more prolific other one is surprising.

But a list like this without Alan Garfield. Seriously?

Lagos or London, i still found Johnny Kwango very limited. His same routines over decades from what I can make out. Never a title shot, never a controversy. Household name, perhaps. Greatness demands more versatility in my book.

I wonder what makes us all include Mike Marino? Would we feel so guilty if we left him out?

Maybe someone can remember a bout where Steve Logan really excelled? I can't.

Alf Marquette and Leon Arras and Mal Kirk all well worth a shout for originality. More than some of the above had.

I find it very hard to make the list objectively as I feel honour-bound to mention those I saw loads of times. And who signed gracious autographs.

Mind you, Sir Atholl will be tickled pink to be included here.

Thought I would include my 10-penn’orth. Wasn’t Johnny Kwango English? Al Micquet and Steve Wright seem to have slipped through the net; and of the Joyce Brothers, I’d include at least Ken.

I get that it needs no further complication, but I personally would prefer it to be wrestlers that worked in the UK, including non-British grapplers who did so that often that, in wrestling terms, that they were almost ‘British by adoption’, otherwise we’re losing good workers like Boscik and the Borgs.

I agree that inclusion should be based on their showings in Britain, as opposed to for WWE, etc. However, I do feel that the Dynamite Kid had enough impact here before going to America, and he also came back later for iconic bouts with Rocco. Billington was born and died in Britain; but the fact that people wrestled a lot in tag does not mean that they’re bolted together. Davey-Boy only just sneaks into my list.

I’ve limited this to people I remember, plus those whose reputation is too strong to ignore. In come Steve Clements, Peter Rann and ace jobber Sid Cooper. Bubbling under were some seemingly-forgotten workers, like Mike Eager, Mick McMichael and Cardiff’s Johnny Williams. I agree that choosing is hard: Roy Bull Davies and Skull Murphy – in or out? I struggled with Peter Preston (as it were) who did, after all, comprehensively beat Mick on TV. I liked Joe Robinson, but only remember him in films; and Bill Robinson is (despite Anglo’s point, and not to sound like Ant and Dec) in the top three.

Here we go, in alphabetical order…

Bert Assirati

Bad Bobby Barnes

Count Bartelli

Jim Breaks

Wayne Bridges

Eddie Capelli

Tony Charles

Steve Clements

Alan Colbeck

Cyanide Sid Cooper

Dazzler Joe Cornelius

Jon Cortez

Gwyn Davies

Alan Denison

The Dynamite Kid

Johnny Eagles

Vic Faulkner

Dave Fit Finlay

Judo Al Hayes

Marty Jones

Ken Joyce

Les Kellett

George Kidd

Johnny Kwango

Iron Man Steve Logan

Tony Mancelli

Mike Marino

Brian Maxine

Mick McManus

Alan Miquet

Bernard Murray.

Kendo Nagasaki

Athol Oakley

Jackie Mr TV Pallo

Dirty Jack Pye

Peter Rann

Bomber Pat Roach

Andy Robin

Billy Robinson

Mark Rollerball Rocco

Bert Royal

Johnny Saint

Davey Boy Smith

Tony St Clair

Francis St Clair Gregory

Adrian Street

Clayton Thomson

Steve Veidor

Albert Rocky Wall

Steve Wright

Hi Guys. I have to admit, as a kid I loved lists, wrote them out all the time, boxers, wrestlers, footballers, cricketers etc. As an adult I just find them soooo difficult, as you actually have to think, hard! However as I'm probably going to 'do' a list in my 'Journey' series, I'll weigh in here and say I wouldn't include Big Daddy nor Haystacks. If it were purely on drawing power there might be a case. However, those guys were mostly drawing kids who dragged their parents along. The cards in the days of those two were getting pretty thin and scattered. If they had been competing with a typical nights wrestling from the fifties, sixties or early seventies, they'd have been struggling to draw. Not their fault, just a change in the times and a dearth of talent. I would have to be convinced on those that I have never seen, i.e. Garnon ,Bates, Orford, Sherry and Dale. There is enough info. about both Clarks to give them a pass. A few others on the original list are a bit dodgy. No need to be 'great', just think how a card of 'very good' wrestlers would have buoyed our spirits on the way home on a cold, wet and windy night !

Sorry he was so good I named him twice

Sorry he was so good I named him

He shouldn't ,he wouldn't.

He shouldn't ,he wouldn't.

He shouldn't ,he wouldn't.

Great thread, everyone. Just a thought - if Billy Two Rivers were British, would he get in? Melvin

Still no Danny Lynch,

Come on lads !!!!!

What if we narrowed the criteria to box office appeal domestically? I realize there are still adjustments to make for different eras but it's probably easier to do?

good example would be so called Belle Epoque of Continental pro wrestling (greco roman) roughly 1895-1910. Pro wrestlers of that generation were as well known and popular among regular pipls (not just russlin fanz) as their country leaders and celebrities, no I am very serious.

Hi Anglo, thanks for the explanation.

I posted before that I will not submit an entry because I really know so little from 1960 onwards.

I think we should be giving our own opinions here and not trying to evauate who was the most popular with fans at large.

Bernard, let me just clarify further that red list. It's from The Wrestler magazine in 1971. They did British ratings one month, European the next, and then World. Just for a couple of years.

So Norman Walsh wouldn't be on the list because he was inactive in 1971. They only included wrestlers who were active at the time.

Thanks for your clarification, Ruslan. This topic is snowballing so fast that I nearly missed it. So your list will include the squeaky-clean guys. When I watch American wrestling today I have great difficulty identifying who the goodies are and who the baddies are. They all seem to ignore the rules and there is no discernible booing, the crowd just make a racket regarding whatever happens.

All this discussion is so far based on just four lists.

Surely you other learned Members can rattle off a list. Don't read ours or you'll be influenced to copy. Just bash 'em down as they come into your head. I should have included Jack Pye but never mind, he wasn't in my mind at the time.

Ian? Paul? Bernard? James and John? Powerlock's has started with Alan Colbeck, just 49 to add, PL!

I won't give a list of wrestlers, I just would say that for me The 1930's generation of British All-in Wrestlers were nonpareil. Any weight class, any title.

What about Big Boy Charlie Scott aka Great Bula?

I don't want to be bothering myself with whether Jim Breaks was better than Kendo Nagasaki. For one thing, I didn't see wrestling like that. I enjoyed the great quantity of varied wrestlers. I remain with Ron in not wanting to put my 50 in order.

We only have four groups of 50 so far. I suppose what does become meaningful is the group who appear on everyone's list. Seems to be over 30 of them?

Ron:

"I guess great is "Who I would have gone to see"

Blimey, that changes things again now. What about Pedro the Gypsy? Steve Haggetty? Klondyke Bill? Eric Turner?

MDW didn't realise what he was starting!

Hi Anglo. First of all, how would I know that the red list was not yours, but from "The Wrestler"?

Did you say ?

Anyway I don't scold you, I try to correct you. You make mistakes, but I love you really because you help to keep the site going with your posts.

I have done an edit , Maxine for Colbeck. You talked me into it boys.

I guess great is "Who I would have gone to see"

Actually that is a pretty good criteria.

Exactly. Now tell Ron!

Well that rules Colbeck out!

"unless the criteria was pure entertainment value"....

What else are we discussing?

What else attracted us 50 years ago?

Nothing is futile if it's fun Anglo.

Sorry about Lord Bertie. Hee! Hee! I thoroughly enjoyed Lord Bertie, he was a great favourite of mine. So was Dominic Pye and the Wildman of Borneo. But unless the criteria was pure entertainment value I wouldn't entertain them for a top 50 place.

I might not have noticed , but I did not attempt to put them in particular order to receive points so if that is what you have done , it kind of mixes it up.

Very hard indeed to say Kendo Nagasaki was more famous than Bert Assirati for example.

I think what you need is for more people to have a go, say 10 people and then one point for each wrestler each time he makes someones list.

It is hard on wrestlers who did not wrestle beyond the war and of course there was no TV in those days. 30's wrestling may also have lacked as many innovation or gimmicks.

Still though they made the papers , it's just very hard to judge where someone like Carl Reginsky or King Curtis would fit in. hence I left them out. They did do a lot of headlining though.

The list you propose is a great attempt , but I would seriously doubt the order , but then again we will not any of us completely agree.

I give an example.....Gwyn Davies as high as 5.

Bernard

I included Norman Walsh and Jack Dempsey. I am accustomed to your scoldings but on this occasion wholly unjustified.

And I have one list only.

1 Bert Assirati

2 Jim Breaks

3 Les Kellett

4 Jackie Pallo

5 Gwyn Davies

6 George Kidd

7 Douglas Clark

8 Dave Armstrong

9 Billy Riley

10 Alan Garfield

11 Bert Royal

12 Billy Howes

13 Billy Robinson

14 Jack Pye

15 Johnny Saint

16 Billy Joyce

17 Count Bartelli

18 Albert Wall

19 George Clark

20 Mick McManus

21 Adrian Street

22 Eric Taylor

23 Kendo Nagasaki

24 Norman Walsh

25 Sandy Orford

26 Jack Dale

27 Dave Finlay

28 John Naylor

29 Mike Marino

30 The Ghoul

31 Mark Rocco

32 Anaconda

33 Bruno Elrington

34 Mitchell Gill

35 Steve Veidor

36 Geoff Portz

37 Harold Angus

38 Jack Alker

39 George Gregory

40 Dark Owl

41 Joe Reid

42 Wayne Bridges

43 Bill Benny

44 Bobby Barnes

45 Farmer's Boy

46 Mitzi Mueller

47 Jack Dempsey

48 Jon Cortez

49 Wild Ian Campbell

50 Tommy Mann

Wot no Colbeck?

And no Lord Bertie Topham!!! I only put him on my list because YOU told me how good he was, Hack.

I'll go to the foot of our stairs.

You monkey.

Ruslan, you're looking for something definitive: you can combine all the lists offered and make a ranking based on total number of inclusions. (My own list will be worth double points ☺)

A splendid question mdw215, look what you've started. The best sort of question because there is no right answer of course, and as Anglo Italian says we would probably come up with a different fifty tomorrow. The oriinal list is s good one. There are a few I would omit because they are post 1988 and I don't know them, so sorry William Regal, Prince Devit, Will Ospreay, Pac, Nick Aldis, Sheamus, Zack Sabre Jr and Nigel McGuiness. I'm not knocking them, I just don't know, but I do doubt that in the modern style any could be included in a list of Top 50 greatest when compared with the opposition over the years.

Of course it's all to do with criteria. A most skilled Top 50 would be very different from a most entertaining, most influential or most innovative. Using Anglo Italian's criteria I would also exclude from those listed by other Dynamite Kid, Dave Smith and Lord Blears becasue they didn't have the impact here before clearing off, unlike Billy Robinson and Adrian Street who had established themselves. I gave thought to Big Daddy. He was the biggest name of the 1980s, had a forty year career, was apparently a reasonable wrestler until his latter days and had a huge impact> He could be in there somewhere but I decided against because he made little impact in the days he could wrestle, and could not wrestle by the time he was making an impact.

Enjoy learning with us MDW, that's what we are all doing. Keep posting, sharing and learning. You mentioned developing this idea to aid your learning. By all means, we'd be interested.

Here's my top 50

Billy Robinson

Douglas Clark

Jim Breaks

Bert Assirati

Billy Joyce

Billy Riley

Jack Pye

Kendo Nagasaki

Johnny Saint

Mick McManus

Albert Wall

Les Kellett

Adrian Street Esq.

Billy Howes

Count Bartelli

Dave Armstrong

Eric Taylor

George Kidd

Gwyn Davies

Jack Dempsey

Alan Garfield

George Clark

Eric Taylor

Jackie Pallo

Mark Rocco

Mike Marino

Norman Walsh

Dave Finlay

Jack Beaumont

Bruno Elrington

Bert Royal

Bob Sherry

Jack Dale

John Naylor

Sandy Orford

Tommy Mann

Geoff Portz

Brian Maxine

The Ghoul (Bates)

Vic Faulkner

Steve Veidor

Wayne Bridges

Bobby Barnes

Wild Ian Campbell

Clayton Thomson

Pat Roach

Wild Angus

Bulldog Bill Garnon

Jon Cortez

Johnny Kincaid

Ok Ron, you put Maxine and I'll slip in Torontos!

As I previously said for me wrestlers, players represent the era, the time, the tastes, the culture. Like with modern football I rarely watch it now, not my era, not my taste. Instead still watch the 90s over and over again, the 99 treble season, and etc.

For me the XXc Greatest Era - The 1930s, the best wrestlers - all-in wrestlers generation. Each weight class had a bunch of exceptional wrestlers, the superheroes.

Hi all, sorry i have not been on site for awhile due to family illnesses. Thanks to Hack for his support and kind words. Anyway back to the top 50 list. I see nobody has mentioned one of my favourite wrestlers ,the great DENNIS MITCHELL. Nice to be back,regards to all. Ian Pringle.

You might be right Anglo , perhaps I should have gone for Brian Maxine.

Naggers is there are Number 34 on my list, Bill. You must have samuari salt in your eyes.

Thank you, The Ost.

Ruslan, you seem not to like "hold and counter-hold" wrestlers ( can't quite grasp the message in your "Personal Taste" post). But this is the essence of professional wrestling. Every Bruno Elrington needs a slick Steve Viedor to be bamboozled by. Certainly, a wholly different show when you have two stylists against each other; but maybe that's why we hardly ever saw Bert Royal v Clayton Thomson etc.

Quite possibly this is what makes JIM BREAKS stand out from them all. The only one who was 100% stylist, 100% villain and 100% original.

That 1971 list of ratings should be taken with a large pinch of salt. It was a Joint Promotions listing compiled in Dale Martin land. The main criterion was to find 70 guys who were active that month so that, as fans leafed through the magazine during the show, they would be reassured of witnessing at least several top-tenners in action. I recall at the time that the listing was more interesting for specifying in which weight category each wrestler was.

The fourth title was Commonwealth, showing that month as held by Andy Robin. But Robin never (ever) wrestled for Dale Martin so, by and by, his title, claimed in 1965 in Canada, would, in southern England, evaporate around his waist and occasionally reappear around Marino's, particularly when Marino had become matchmaker a few years later.

It's sunny Sunday now, Ruslan, and I am up early after a sleepless night - the thought of Alan Colbeck making Ron's Top Fifty was haunting me.

I like both Anglo's and Ron's lists. I think I would add Francis St Clair Gregory. But then I am an outsider only looking back.

As for Marino I recall him wearing 4 belts around the same ...which was the 4th title?

Anglo. I fail to see how you can not include Kendo Nagasaki in your list.

Ruslan , you can see who I think might have been the greats after 1930. I did spread them out as well as I could.

You ask of the Music Hall/ Fields wrestlers , mainly Wigan catch merchants. (early 1900's)

I don't really know but it seems to me that Joe Carroll , nephew Jack Carroll and Peter Gotz all went on to contribute to the birth of 1930's Wrestling. It's likely we could throw in Sam Moores as well and then maybe anyone else from Wigan not that far behind.

I see this is important for you Ruslan so I'll try to define how I interpreted "great".

- decent length career

- travelled all over the country (hence excluded Robin)

- made wrestling look real (excluded Haystacks, though he was a good draw)

- good hard workers.

- skilful

- original

- maybe a clever, lasting gimmick.

- gave value for money (obliged to exclude Big Daddy).

- ongoing substantial praise from fellow Members here about those I never saw (Topham, Ghoul)

And since I am an unforgigiving swine, yes, I did exclude Billy Robinson because he naughtily emigrated whilst still holding the British Heavyweight title. The Wrestler magazine told me at the time that this just wasn't cricket and that was good enough for me!

I believe American fans have very different criteria for determining what makes a great.

When the historians at the Wrestling Classics board did a "100 Greatest" list only three British wrestlers received votes. Billy Robinson, Dynamite Kid and Big Daddy. I have been a fan of this site and have been reviewing it for years and it seems there is a wide gap in knowledge and appreciate of British wrestlers (at least by those who voted in the other list). I wanted to get a sense of the perception from British wrestling historians. I thank you all for indulging me.

If there is any interest in doing a more formal and comprehensive list, I'd be happy to do the grunt work. I must state my goal is to increase awareness and I know as an American in his 30's a list like this at least gives me a starting point on who the most important wrestlers are to learn about.

An impossible task to compare who you have seen with who you have a perception of.

I refuse to use Haystacks and Daddy as I base it on who could wrestle and do showman.

This site only covers to 1988 so I am not doing beyond.

If you ask me again in a month , the list could change by at least half a dozen.

,Assirati, Doug Clark , Anaconda ,George Clark , Mitchell Gill

Harold Angus , Jack Alker , George Gregory , Dark Owl, Joe Reid

Jack Pye , Bill Benny , Farmers Boy , Dave Armstrong , Norman Walsh

Billy Joyce , Bill Robinson , Albert Wall , Gwyn Davies, Portz

Kellett , McManus , Pallo , Street , Bert Royal

Saint, Breaks , Kidd , Maxine , Dennison

Rocco , Finlay , Dynamite , Marty Jones , Regal

Bill Howes , Mike Marino , Garfield , Francis Gregory, Mancelli..

Mask (Orford) , Black Mask (Nuttall), Nagasaki , Bartelli , Ghoul (Bates)

Dai Sullivan , Alf Rawlings , Tommy Mann , Jack Dempsey , Andy Robin ,

Ok Ruslan. If you ask me tomorrow it would probably be a different list entirely, but this Saturday I'll say:

Bert Assirati

Billy Riley

Jackie Pallo

Jack Dale

John Naylor

Alan Garfield

Les Kellett

Geo. Kidd

Jim Breaks

Bert Royal

Sandy Orford

The Ghoul

Ct Bartelli

Gwyn Davies

Mitzi Mueller

Steve Viedor

Billy Howes

Jon Cortez

Dwight J Ingleberg

Wayne Bridges

Bobby Barnes

Tiger Joe Robinson

Wild Ian Campbell

Ivor/Pat Barrett

Bruno Elrington

Clayton Thomson

Dave Armstrong

Johnny Kincaid

Skull Murphy

Fit Finlay

Mal Kirk

Pat Roach

Mike Marino

Kendo Nagasaki

Johnny Saint

Tommy Mann

Wild Angus

Gentleman Jim Lewis

Judo Al Hayes

Lord Bertie Topham

Mark Rocco

Eddie Capelli

Norman Walsh

Eric Taylor

Albert Wall

Kung Fu

Adrian Street Esq.

Mick McManus

Jack Dempsey

Billy Joyce

A couple of Irishmen in my list, but that seems to be what is being requested.

Interesting idea. And we'll all have our own interpretations of "great."

And we'd all include a few names that others haven't heard of. I do at least know 42 of yours.

I would have thought Les Kellett, The Royals and Ct Bartelli would be worth an entry given their big contributions over years. If Street is included, no way Barnes can be excluded.

Adams, Charles, Thornton, Regal, Smith and Eagles don't really come across as "great" to me in the way Billy Riley, Mitzi Mueller, Jack Dale, Johnny Kincaid, John Naylor, Wayne Bridges and Wild Ian Campbell do.

And I bet if Ron gets his magnifying glass out he'll be able to knock out several on the basis of place of birth. If The Wild Man of Borneo was born in UK, he'd have to be included, too.

That's a great start. I hope it isn't in order of merit because I think there are going to be some complaints if it is. I have't even heard of a number of them. Where's Orig Williams? Don't think Black Butcher Johnson was born here.