Looking for more info on Harry Joyce who was an all-in wrestler & promoter of the 1930s & 1940s. First time I've found him is 1936, last time 1945. Anything is appreciated. Kindest regards, Nick
Just a small snapshot of this family. Harry Joyce born Northants (Wellingborough) 1898 and married Doris Wilson there in 1922. Ken was born 1923. I agree with the A-Z that it looks likely Doug was born in Canada and probably not much younger than Ken as they both wrestled late 1940's.
By the late 1930's Harry lived at Sartoris Road Rushden claiming he was a retired grocery Shop Keeper (So Young) so was perhaps making money from Wrestling.
At that time young Ken was working with boots and shoes as had been the trade of his Grandfather and other family members. Looks like the family had lived at Sartoris Road for more than 30 years.
Pretty sure Harry died in 1965 in Rushden.
Nick , is there anything more specific that you might be seeking.
Fantastic info. Thank you for this. I believed he had been born and died those dates but couldn't be sure. I'm working on a book about the history of professional wrestling in Northern Ireland and Harry appears to have been the man who trained the very 1st homegrown wrestlers of that region in late 1939 or early 1940. That is, they were trained in Belfast by Joyce, I imagine before shows or a day or two before shows when he landed in country. There's definitely one instance of novices being invited to be coached under Canadian Carl von Wurden before a show in Belfast in 1940. So Harry's a pretty pivotal character. I had asked some of the Joyce family (grandchildren of Ken & Doug) but I think it was too far back for them (Harry being their great great grandfather and passed before they were even born).
As previously mentioned by Anglo Italian we have for a long time wondered about the link between Harry Joyce and Herbert Devereux. Although Herbert's son, Michael, sold the business to Harry's son, Ken, I don't believe there was any connection with Harry, who died in 1965.
Whoever bumped this back up, thank you. Harry is the chap I had in mind when wondering how Billy Joyce chose his ring name in the thirties.
Hindsight is all very well, but Harry may have been upwardly mobile pre-war and who knows what relationship he may have had with Billy, notwithstanding geographical divergence.
Joyce is none too common as a surname, and certainly doesn't have a wow factor worthy of imitating. In wrestling, if something is amazingly coincidental .... it isn't.
Fascinating to see Ed (Jack!) Wensor inextricably linked with the Joyces even on those Lincoln bills. He got a huge push as Mr X. Frankly I couldn't work out what the fuss was all about, though I did only see him wrestle a few times. I can only surmise that it was down to a large dollop of nepotism.
I would think George DeRelwyskow Junior from Joint, possibly Les Martin but I don't know when he died. Danny Flynn and Bill Benny of the independents, but of those there must have been others, there were so many of them.
Cheers Hack. That leaves his gym from 1963. Harry must have been active in wrestling up to his death. I wonder are there many promoters who've passed while still active? Orig Williams is another. George de Relwyskow Senior and Junior too?
Would you happen to have a link to her comments? I may try to track her down to find out more about her Dad.
O'Shea was first in Ireland in 1961 I think. Orig started '63 maybe. Dave Finlay Snr started '64 (same year Orig ran Ireland solo for the 1st time in October time or so).
O'Shea and Orig both very imaginative! Billy Red Rivers instead of Billy Two Rivers is definitely challenging wrestling fans to spot the difference!
Hi Ron. I wonder might you have much on Jack "Sean O'Shea" Jefferson. I think I read somewhere someone had spoken to his daughter? Maybe I'm remembering wrong. He seemed an interesting character anyway, it's my belief he brought Orig Williams to Ireland for the 1st time (though there's no mention of such, indeed even to the contrary, in Orig's own autobiography).
Hi Ron, would you have any idea of who ran as "London Promotions Ltd" in the late 1930s? I believe I had seen they ran regularly at a venue in Manchester (Ardwick Stadium) however it listed the promoter as the venue owner and it wasn't a name that seemed to mean much. Norman Morrell possibly? Was he promoting as early as 1938/9?
I am not sure about London promotions but I think Morrell did promote that early.
I do know that by about 1942 Ardwick was run by Wryton and as Count Barteli was part of that set up , I note that Bartelli as Jeff Condor was wrestling there in 1939.
But Wryton would not have been called London Promotions.
I have been chatting to a fellow genealogist in Australia about Harry Joyce in Canada and staying in Sask and yet sailing to Quebec.
What I can tell you is that Harry was the youngest of six siblings and he also went out in 1920 to stay with his eldest brother Charles in Quebec. There was a 15 year age difference between them. Seemingly he moved on to Sask and came home and then married and went back.
I am pretty sure I have Harry dying late 1965 in Northamptonshire. (age 67)
I have posted this morning but did not realise it was further back in the thread as a reply. This is what I said.
Hoping that Nick is still watching this thread.
When Harry Joyce went out to Canada in 1923 with his wife and son he filled in a declaration.
It transpires that he had lived in Canada from 9th April 1920 to 1st December 1921 in Maryfield Saskatchewan. This was before he was married and Doris had never been there until 1923.
Harry had lived with a friend in Sask who I can give a surname of Elliot.
Still trying to see if I can spot anymore and in particular when he came back.
Hi Ron. I was speaking to a fellow, Tony Scarlo, who seemed to suggest Harry was still promoting in the Wellingborough area in the late '60s / early '70s. Of course he might be misremembering as there wasn't much more than that info and anyone else I've asked only remembers Ken and maybe Doug. What do you think to that?
When Harry Joyce went out to Canada in 1923 with his wife and son he filled in a declaration.
It transpires that he had lived in Canada from 9th April 1920 to 1st December 1921 in Maryfield Saskatchewan. This was before he was married and Doris had never been there until 1923.
Harry had lived with a friend in Sask who I can give a surname of Elliot.
Still trying to see if I can spot anymore and in particular when he came back.
Yes, great discovery. Perhaps the Joyce family spent significant time in Canada from 1923 to 1936, Harry made his connections & got into the wrestling scene there and then when back, with experience, began matchmaking & promoting, etc
Just a small snapshot of this family. Harry Joyce born Northants (Wellingborough) 1898 and married Doris Wilson there in 1922. Ken was born 1923. I agree with the A-Z that it looks likely Doug was born in Canada and probably not much younger than Ken as they both wrestled late 1940's.
By the late 1930's Harry lived at Sartoris Road Rushden claiming he was a retired grocery Shop Keeper (So Young) so was perhaps making money from Wrestling.
At that time young Ken was working with boots and shoes as had been the trade of his Grandfather and other family members. Looks like the family had lived at Sartoris Road for more than 30 years.
Pretty sure Harry died in 1965 in Rushden.
Nick , is there anything more specific that you might be seeking.
As previously mentioned by Anglo Italian we have for a long time wondered about the link between Harry Joyce and Herbert Devereux. Although Herbert's son, Michael, sold the business to Harry's son, Ken, I don't believe there was any connection with Harry, who died in 1965.
I've started a Devereux thread
Whoever bumped this back up, thank you. Harry is the chap I had in mind when wondering how Billy Joyce chose his ring name in the thirties.
Hindsight is all very well, but Harry may have been upwardly mobile pre-war and who knows what relationship he may have had with Billy, notwithstanding geographical divergence.
Joyce is none too common as a surname, and certainly doesn't have a wow factor worthy of imitating. In wrestling, if something is amazingly coincidental .... it isn't.
Fascinating to see Ed (Jack!) Wensor inextricably linked with the Joyces even on those Lincoln bills. He got a huge push as Mr X. Frankly I couldn't work out what the fuss was all about, though I did only see him wrestle a few times. I can only surmise that it was down to a large dollop of nepotism.
Some proof here that Harry Joyce did some promoting with Paul Lincoln.
Click for bigger image.
I am Harry Joyce's son, if anyone needs any more info.
You still looking for info on the Joyce wrestlers?
I would think George DeRelwyskow Junior from Joint, possibly Les Martin but I don't know when he died. Danny Flynn and Bill Benny of the independents, but of those there must have been others, there were so many of them.
Cheers Hack. That leaves his gym from 1963. Harry must have been active in wrestling up to his death. I wonder are there many promoters who've passed while still active? Orig Williams is another. George de Relwyskow Senior and Junior too?
The article was 1978.
Fantastic Hack! What year is that article from?
Reference here of Harry having a wrestling school in Irthlinborough.
Would you happen to have a link to her comments? I may try to track her down to find out more about her Dad.
O'Shea was first in Ireland in 1961 I think. Orig started '63 maybe. Dave Finlay Snr started '64 (same year Orig ran Ireland solo for the 1st time in October time or so).
O'Shea and Orig both very imaginative! Billy Red Rivers instead of Billy Two Rivers is definitely challenging wrestling fans to spot the difference!
O
O,Shea's daughter was thrilled to find her dad on some of the bills in the galleries.
She did not come on the Forum , but put a note on the gallery saying so.
I think all she mentioned that Dad and Johnny Bates were big mates.
They were both part of the Manchester Crowd,
O'Shea toured Ireland a lot so I can believe he could have tempted Orig. Dave Finlay senior could have been a way in also, maybe even for both.
I have also seen reference to Jack Jefferson being Paul Jefferson.
He is a bit of a mystery. Good imagination as a promoter but one could argue Fraudulent.
Hi Ron. I wonder might you have much on Jack "Sean O'Shea" Jefferson. I think I read somewhere someone had spoken to his daughter? Maybe I'm remembering wrong. He seemed an interesting character anyway, it's my belief he brought Orig Williams to Ireland for the 1st time (though there's no mention of such, indeed even to the contrary, in Orig's own autobiography).
Hi Ron, would you have any idea of who ran as "London Promotions Ltd" in the late 1930s? I believe I had seen they ran regularly at a venue in Manchester (Ardwick Stadium) however it listed the promoter as the venue owner and it wasn't a name that seemed to mean much. Norman Morrell possibly? Was he promoting as early as 1938/9?
I am pretty sure I have Harry dying late 1965 in Northamptonshire. (age 67)
I have posted this morning but did not realise it was further back in the thread as a reply. This is what I said.
Hoping that Nick is still watching this thread.
When Harry Joyce went out to Canada in 1923 with his wife and son he filled in a declaration.
It transpires that he had lived in Canada from 9th April 1920 to 1st December 1921 in Maryfield Saskatchewan. This was before he was married and Doris had never been there until 1923.
Harry had lived with a friend in Sask who I can give a surname of Elliot.
Still trying to see if I can spot anymore and in particular when he came back.
Hi Ron. I was speaking to a fellow, Tony Scarlo, who seemed to suggest Harry was still promoting in the Wellingborough area in the late '60s / early '70s. Of course he might be misremembering as there wasn't much more than that info and anyone else I've asked only remembers Ken and maybe Doug. What do you think to that?
Hoping that Nick is still watching this thread.
When Harry Joyce went out to Canada in 1923 with his wife and son he filled in a declaration.
It transpires that he had lived in Canada from 9th April 1920 to 1st December 1921 in Maryfield Saskatchewan. This was before he was married and Doris had never been there until 1923.
Harry had lived with a friend in Sask who I can give a surname of Elliot.
Still trying to see if I can spot anymore and in particular when he came back.
Yes, great discovery. Perhaps the Joyce family spent significant time in Canada from 1923 to 1936, Harry made his connections & got into the wrestling scene there and then when back, with experience, began matchmaking & promoting, etc
Amazing work once again Ron.