Anyone have any info on Harry Joyce? (father of Ken & Doug)

As previously mentioned by Anglo Italian we have for a long time wondered about the link between Harry Joyce and Herbert Devereux. Although Herbert's son, Michael, sold the business to Harry's son, Ken, I don't believe there was any connection with Harry, who died in 1965.

I've started a Devereux thread

Whoever bumped this back up, thank you. Harry is the chap I had in mind when wondering how Billy Joyce chose his ring name in the thirties.

Hindsight is all very well, but Harry may have been upwardly mobile pre-war and who knows what relationship he may have had with Billy, notwithstanding geographical divergence.

Joyce is none too common as a surname, and certainly doesn't have a wow factor worthy of imitating. In wrestling, if something is amazingly coincidental .... it isn't.

Fascinating to see Ed (Jack!) Wensor inextricably linked with the Joyces even on those Lincoln bills. He got a huge push as Mr X. Frankly I couldn't work out what the fuss was all about, though I did only see him wrestle a few times. I can only surmise that it was down to a large dollop of nepotism.

Some proof here that Harry Joyce did some promoting with Paul Lincoln.

Click for bigger image.

I am Harry Joyce's son, if anyone needs any more info.

You still looking for info on the Joyce wrestlers?

I would think George DeRelwyskow Junior from Joint, possibly Les Martin but I don't know when he died. Danny Flynn and Bill Benny of the independents, but of those there must have been others, there were so many of them.

Cheers Hack. That leaves his gym from 1963. Harry must have been active in wrestling up to his death. I wonder are there many promoters who've passed while still active? Orig Williams is another. George de Relwyskow Senior and Junior too?

The article was 1978.

Fantastic Hack! What year is that article from?

Reference here of Harry having a wrestling school in Irthlinborough.

Would you happen to have a link to her comments? I may try to track her down to find out more about her Dad.

O'Shea was first in Ireland in 1961 I think. Orig started '63 maybe. Dave Finlay Snr started '64 (same year Orig ran Ireland solo for the 1st time in October time or so).

O'Shea and Orig both very imaginative! Billy Red Rivers instead of Billy Two Rivers is definitely challenging wrestling fans to spot the difference!

O

O,Shea's daughter was thrilled to find her dad on some of the bills in the galleries.

She did not come on the Forum , but put a note on the gallery saying so.

I think all she mentioned that Dad and Johnny Bates were big mates.

They were both part of the Manchester Crowd,

O'Shea toured Ireland a lot so I can believe he could have tempted Orig. Dave Finlay senior could have been a way in also, maybe even for both.

I have also seen reference to Jack Jefferson being Paul Jefferson.

He is a bit of a mystery. Good imagination as a promoter but one could argue Fraudulent.

Hi Ron. I wonder might you have much on Jack "Sean O'Shea" Jefferson. I think I read somewhere someone had spoken to his daughter? Maybe I'm remembering wrong. He seemed an interesting character anyway, it's my belief he brought Orig Williams to Ireland for the 1st time (though there's no mention of such, indeed even to the contrary, in Orig's own autobiography).

Hi Ron, would you have any idea of who ran as "London Promotions Ltd" in the late 1930s? I believe I had seen they ran regularly at a venue in Manchester (Ardwick Stadium) however it listed the promoter as the venue owner and it wasn't a name that seemed to mean much. Norman Morrell possibly? Was he promoting as early as 1938/9?

I am pretty sure I have Harry dying late 1965 in Northamptonshire. (age 67)

I have posted this morning but did not realise it was further back in the thread as a reply. This is what I said.

Hoping that Nick is still watching this thread.

When Harry Joyce went out to Canada in 1923 with his wife and son he filled in a declaration.

It transpires that he had lived in Canada from 9th April 1920 to 1st December 1921 in Maryfield Saskatchewan. This was before he was married and Doris had never been there until 1923.

Harry had lived with a friend in Sask who I can give a surname of Elliot.

Still trying to see if I can spot anymore and in particular when he came back.

Hi Ron. I was speaking to a fellow, Tony Scarlo, who seemed to suggest Harry was still promoting in the Wellingborough area in the late '60s / early '70s. Of course he might be misremembering as there wasn't much more than that info and anyone else I've asked only remembers Ken and maybe Doug. What do you think to that?

Hoping that Nick is still watching this thread.

When Harry Joyce went out to Canada in 1923 with his wife and son he filled in a declaration.

It transpires that he had lived in Canada from 9th April 1920 to 1st December 1921 in Maryfield Saskatchewan. This was before he was married and Doris had never been there until 1923.

Harry had lived with a friend in Sask who I can give a surname of Elliot.

Still trying to see if I can spot anymore and in particular when he came back.

Yes, great discovery. Perhaps the Joyce family spent significant time in Canada from 1923 to 1936, Harry made his connections & got into the wrestling scene there and then when back, with experience, began matchmaking & promoting, etc

Amazing work once again Ron.

Just tracked down Harry Joyce with wife Doris and 7 week old son Ken going to Canada in 1923.

The ship was the Montcalm and it sailed Liverpool to Quebec 13th July 1923

Harry stated Canada was to be his residence and was a Farm Worker.

They travelled third class. The Montcalm had been built in Glasgow in 1920.

Hope that is a bonus for you Nick.

No. I can see very little evidence of Harry as a wrestler. The earliest I find is 1945 in Dundee.

Does anyone have Harry Joyce in wrestling before 1936? (info, evidence etc) Similar to Irishman "Bearded" Pat Magee I can only found him from 1936 onwards.

Maybe, but so what? Harry had spent most of the 1930s in Canada. I can't imagine that looking for a big name to cash in on Harry Joyce would come to mind. More interesting, is any connection between Bob Robinson and the name Joyce, and it was nothing to do with Harry.

Yes, 1939, he chose Joyce when Harry had been promoting successfully for seven years, since 1932.

I'm pleased you said we never got to the bottom of the Joyce/Devereux link Anglo Italian, I thought it was only me. But there was definitely a link. As for Billy, sorry you're barking up the wrong Italian tree, he was using the name in 1939. We did come across a 1950s Bob Robinson in Rochester which we presumed was him.

But Harry was an established promoter late thirties.

And I believe Bob Robinson fiddled around with his ring name before settling on Billy Joyce in the fifties.

Yes Nick plenty of evidence that Harry Joyce was training wrestlers for promoter Nat Joseph. Did plenty of wrestling too as well as being Ref.

Cab Cashford seems pretty well embroiled with Joyce in these bills and he replaced McTaff in the bill at Derry and unmasked the Red Phantom who turned out to be Harry Joyce.

All good stuff. Note the Blue bill "Matchmaker from Canada."

Billy started out long before Ken and Doug. He was wrestling in 1939.

And of course the obvious question, so obvious that we never ask it: when Bob Robinson could choose any name he wanted for the ring, why did he choose Billy Joyce when there were already three established Joyces around?

Just looking into this a bit deeper. For now here he is.

You can gain some measure of Harry's span of activity as a promoter by considering he brought Whipper Watson to the UK from Canada in 1936; and in 1963 he introduced Ed Wensor to professional ring.

The Canadian link is an ongoing theme, Ken was occasionally billed from Canada. It seems that at some point Harry had himself arrived from Canada.

His area of activity was Rushden and Kettering and Peterborough and it was always a fair assumption that any wrestler billed from that area had a Joyce connection. Gypsy Smith is another.

I think you'll find his bills were aligned with the BWF.

The other well-known link is between the Joyce clan and Devereux Promotions, though I don't think we've ever really got to the bottom of it. Similarly, there was ongoing co-operation with Paul Lincoln.

This makes Joyce rather special and influential by straddling the above named with Dale Martin & Joint Promotions.

Joyce seems also to have been responsible for bringing Le Bourreau de Béthune to the UK in 1965.

There was a Harry Joyce who did some promoting with Paul Lincoln in the 60s (Peterborough was one town). Not sure if that was him or not.