ASSIRATI Vs BALDWIN 19TH OCT 1955

ruslan-pashayev

20m

"All according to the above logical chain of reasoning."

There's no place for logic or reasoning in pro wrestling.

Hi Ruslan. I know that you won't like this answer, but I don't think that there was a previous holder of the Mount-Evans heavyweight title before Ernie Baldwin. He was the first.

Also the choice of Newcastle and Middlesbrough for Title fights is not so mystifying when you know the halls that Morrell used. In the North East.

By the way I appreciate that some of your views have changed from always being belts, results and titles to thinking what was behind professional wrestling .

Good on you !

I don't remember anyone saying that Bert was Lord Mount-Evans heavyweight champion on this site.

Please tell me where it says that..

ruslan-pashayev

33m

Replying to Hack

ASSIRATI NEVER WAS JP's (read MOUNT EVANS STYLE) BRITISH HEAVYWIEGHT CHAMPION.

Aah, too cryptic for a simple Lancashire boy.

Long story short. this multi week thread (if anyone reads it still) below clearly demonstrates that NO WAY ON EARTH ...Mr A Non Clan Member was a Clan's Champ, regardless their weight class, popularity among fans, actual wrestling skill, or whatever you want to call it. lol.

APPROVED.

Click for bigger image. Some examples of Billy Riley as a "Booker"

Observation number 1.

Co-operation with other promoters to share wrestlers. Not realistic to just put a show on with Snake Pit only workers

Observation number 2.

The use of three terms. The Wrestling Board of Control. The Wrestling Board. Under the supervision of Billy Riley.

The most realistic was simply under the supervision of Billy Riley.

There's a world of difference between saying Riley supplied wrestlers and was head of a Board of Control as you said initially.

Yes there were wrestlers from Riley's gym, but they were a tiny percentage. At any one time maybe 20, out of around 500 or so wrestlers, less than 1%.

I'm not sure how many times I've told you, but of course Dale Martin could have their own champions in 1952 because they were not part of Joint Promotions.

In 1953 they paid their money, bought the shares and took their place alongside the other Joint Promotions directors.

Ruslan wrote

"Back To Riley.... he was an essential and probably the most important and influential member of it since its very foundation. It was actually him who headed the Board of Control which literally was in charge of the reading of the rules of the game and etc how to judge this or that if it occurs in the course of the match. He was a head judge in this particular form of pro wrestling called Lord Mount Evans Style. It is a fact."

Ending a statement with "It is a fact," does not make it a fact.

The term Board of Control has been used time and time again although no such control has ever existed. Promoters would often refer to themselves as members of a non existent Board of Control?

What can you tell us about this one Ruslan?

As far as I can see the only registered body "Board of Control" in 1950 was the British Wrestling Promoters Association. Formed in March 1949 and consisted of

• Norman Morrell

• George De Relwyskow

• Ted Beresford (Globe Promotions)

• Dale Martin Promotions

• Wryton Promotions

In 1952 all except Dale Martin morphed into Joint Promotions.

Billy Riley was not part of the group and not part of Joint Promotions.

Great analytical stuff, Ruslan. I particularly agree with your factual approach:

"Back To Riley.

..... he was an essential and probably the most important and influential member of it since its very foundation. It was actually him who headed the Board of Control which literally was in charge of the reading of the rules of the game and etc how to judge this or that if it occurs in the course of the match. He was a head judge in this particular form of pro wrestling called Lord Mount Evans Style. It is a fact.

Yes, there definitely was a shift in the JPs politics."

and especially;

"But the fact still is - to be the JP British Champ you almost certainly had to represent the Riley school. Late 50s early 60s I am talking."

And it is precisely that end of period that interests me and how such a total change to what had seemed a cast-in-stone status quo came to pass, and how those coveted titles slipped from Morrell's and Riley's grasp.

Billy Riley...it is my friends, ENJOY!

Whoever (that Mr T. STORR) was running shows at COLNE was a very good friends with Mr. Riley, lol.

And one more thing, on top of everything. The Lord Mount Evans style of pro wrestling has nothing in common with historical Lancashire catch as catch can wrestling (professional or amateur does not matter). These two are absolutely unrelated and have nothing in common. Period.

Mount Evans style is nothing but a copy-paste of the 1930s-40s All-in pro wrestling which originally was brought to UK by H. Irslinger, a smoothened version of it if you will. Lol.

Back To Riley.

Not only he was a member of the original Mount Evans group, call it Morell's Group, call it the North West pro wrestling mafia, he was an essential and probably the most important and influential member of it since its very foundation. It was actually him who headed the Board of Control which literally was in charge of the reading of the rules of the game and etc how to judge this or that if it occurs in the course of the match. He was a head judge in this particular form of pro wrestling called Lord Mount Evans Style. It is a fact.

Yes, there definitely was a shift in the JPs politics. Originally their champs were just three West Yorkies Morell's neighbors, let's say. Later we see that most of the champs (if not all of them) are Riley's students. Why was that? Were they a better draw than others, were they more fun to watch than others? Did they sell crowds better? I have no idea, it is only old fans from Manchester who saw them all at Belle Vue (and other iconic similar venues) can answer this question. But the fact still is - to be the JP British Champ you almost certainly had to represent the Riley school. Late 50s early 60s I am talking. Period.

And please do not ask me about the "shoots" and the etc non-existing stuff. I just do not talk about this nonsense. Maybe some other people do. I do not.

I have friends both in Salzburg, Austria...and in Bavaria too. Do not ever say that they are related! They will get mad at you, like one second. Now what I did...I rephrased my question...talking not about politics, and history, and maps and etc etc I asked my Austrian friend from Salzburg about their culture, about their traditional wrestling too. And then...the answer was pretty simple and straight forward..."it is exactly the same as theirs", and why? simply, because it is the same people that just happened to live in two different countries historically. That's about it.

Anyways.

South/East Lancs and West Yorks.

They would be culturally the same people, Pennines or not. Guess what, Lancashire's up and down fighting (a precursor to the pro catch wrestling)...as a matter of fact was known in West Yorkshire as Yorkshire fighting and also existed there for centuries!!! Precisely the same exact form. And by the way I did write quite a bit on this subject in the past, I believe.

What would you personally want to call this "culture", it is up to you. I personally prefer North West, just because its on the North in the Western part of the country. Lol.

Enough. I maxed out this. They are exactly the same people. Want it or not. And do not be surprised that they run business similarly and actually would prefer to run business together than have business with some other people who do not share their CULTURE.

Thanks for the correction SaxonWolf.

Ruslan, just to correct Hack, he got a little confused, due to his age, the actual answer should read.......

"...The Pennines were erected long ago by the people of Yorkshire to keep out the people of Lancashire...."

Hack, you omit Billy Riley from your list.

Ruslan, you have a tag partner against these bullies!!! I can see where you're coming from.

Numerically, Hack's little list may hold weight. But isn't it a fact on our site that it's Wigan, Wigan, Wigan and all the Wiganites that attract most attention, whether as shooters or as long-standing, generally dour, British champions? And Ruslan has told us all about Lancashire catch. We don't hear about Yorkshire or Tyneside versions.

We would love to know how the power was distributed amongst the JP founders. Some like G del Rel may just have been happy to have access to lots more talent. Dale Martin may have been happy to rake off half of the country geographically. But to Billy Riley, in his ramshackle snakepit, all that seemed to matter in life was shoot wrestling. In this sense, Billy was The Man. He didn't appear to value the financial rewards of being a JP promoter as much as being the protector of what he perceived to be pure wrestling and the nurturer of talent in his own image.

Billy seemed content to take a back seat in all the commercial aspects but insisted in dominating whatever true competitive element was to exist in the JP era.

So just like the mafia has clans in Calabria, Naples, Sicily, and some would say within the government in Rome, Ruslan seems to be describing the whole mafia-like network through its geographical heart, positioned, appropriately just left off centre to the upper part of the body that is a map of England. Wigan.

Hi Ruslan. I don't know the answer to your query about Bavarians and Austrians, but I would think that possibly different roots would come into it. They would obviously have different traits.

My point was that no Yorkshireman that I've ever met would consider himself from the North West.

As for Morrell employing mainly wrestlers from the North West, try telling that to the boys from Middlesbrough, Stockton or Newcastle.

I'm not sure which tree you're barking up now Ruslan, but it looks like an extinct one.

You're the one that started going on about the north west mafia and Manchester clan and the way they controlled the titles.

Relwyskow was from Yorkshire

Green was from Yorkshire.

Morrell was from Yorkshire.

Beresford was from Yorkshire.

The only one Joint promoter from the north west and Manchester was Arthur Wright.

And he was the only one with no interest in titles.

I feel like I am kind of talking to myself, lol.

still just pressing the point lol.

no way on Planet Earth Assirati was the JP Champ in 1955.

He was not a member of the NORTH WEST CLAN.

Period.

Like Bernard, I am focused on the 1950s. I agree wholeheartedly with Bernard that Norman Morrell was the top dog, and seemingly the unofficial, but very real, President of Joint Promotions. For him, controlling all the titles was very precious.

I disagree strongly that Dale Martin weren't interested in the titles. They just had to sit and accept that they would have none, part of being 1953 JP newbies.

Once the balance of JP power had swung dramatically in Dale Martin's favour in approx 1961, Dale Martin redressed the title imbalance, claiming control of nearly all of them through the sixties. Dale Martin wanted the titles all right and claimed them as soon as they had the power.

My interest through all this is working out just how, why and when this very dramatic and visible Southwards powershift occurred. So far I've linked it to the tv contract - which we know little about but which I do suspect Mick McManus was at the epicentre of. My reasoning? His self-bestowal of 173 tv appearances.

If I am right, we can examine McManus's early tv work to see when he took off.

I realise I am off at a tangent for ardent Assirati and Baldwin fans here so will start a separate thread.

Thank you Peter. Sorry Ruslan to press this point .

In the 1950's especially, in the north, Norman Morrell was the top dog. He did the matchmaking, said where and when, and he lived in the Bradford/Leeds area.

Not ever considered the North West.

This subject started off on a 1950's article, not 1820's.

Hi Ruslan, just re-reading this topic.

I didn't count the number of times that you said "North West", but I'm not

sure how well you know England's geography or where the wrestlers came from.

In the 1950's Baldwin came possibly from NW but trained for Morrell in Bradford /Leeds, this roughly the middle of England. Dave Armstrong and Norman Walsh both from North East.

Even Norman Morrell, who ran the shows put two eliminators on in Middlesbrough and Newcastle - North East.

Add all this together and tell me ,In the 50's, Why all North West.?

Later on ,yes I agree North West, but we are not talking here about later on.

Thus far I have read with interest but kept out of this one. And my answer is that I just don't really know the politics.

The facts as I see them.

Assirati earned a lot of money in India , Pakistan and all over that part of the world.

Promoters in this country got rich but the wrestlers only really got the crumbs.

To be a valid champ probably required a fair bit of travel.

Did Bert have much respect for the establishment. Could he earn more money working a night club door.

He could and did go on to promote with Jack Taylor and some of his own shows.

What fascinates me is we can never really know his performance level over the years.

Age 47 in 1955. Did he have a style that had to change , or was the whole thing just a little bit slower.

Clearly , something was left in the tank. There were seasoned heavy weights that he could still have matches with , who maybe also did not want to work for Joint.

Those closing years of Assirati's career , he had the likes of Charlie Green , Alf Robinson , Bert Nuttall , Stezycki , Bright and Verna. Not as old as Bert , but old pro's that perhaps did not mind a bit of blood to go in with.

Bert could be advertised with credible looking titles or otherwise.

And I believe he gave something back to the game.

Early Don Stedman went in with him and more often Les Thornton as Henry Pierlot. Les stating that his money went up for taking this leap and respect was earned by going at Assirati hard.

Was it more satisfying to just handle the end of your career under your own management.

Maybe I lean towards Bert not fitting in with the promoters ideas.

As Johnny Kincaid said " Of course they had to control you"

Dale Martin had champions, but they were a lot less interested in featuring championships and physical belts in their promotional behaviour. Jack Dale was a champion for years, did he ever wear a belt? If so I've not seen a picture. Whereas in the North it seemed to be very important thing.

(Oh dear, i've gotten involved in the North vs South discussion)

The promoters in Portsmouth had belts. But their championships didn't seem to carry across to the other Dale Martin towns in the 50's. Later on in the 1960's DM got more interested in promoting their Southern Area champions (from time to time), but again, not a lot in the way of physical representation through belts etc.

Perhaps all the drama around Assirati and Baldwin convinced them further to avoid that sort of thing?

I seem to remember that I swollowed the story that Bert had gone off on an extended tour of the Far East, been stripped of the title by Joint, "The Promoters", forces of darkness, whatever, but returned to sweep all before him. It was clearly a lot more complicated. Well, I was pretty young. But this thread has been so interesting. Thanks everyone.

Interesting points about clans, Ruslan. Throw in nepotism, too. Probably the way thousands of businesses and business sectors are run. Nevertheless, there was a definite appreciable shift: Dale Martin was a newbie and seemingly junior DM member in the fifties...and became far and away the dominant member just a few years later. In the end, DM was JP.

The circumstances that caused that shift of power continue to fascinate me.

Maybe the interesting Assirati comments here do shed some light.

But from that famous 1960 photo we always post, with all the belted champions, we know that all British champions at that time were from the north. So Ruslan's point about the north-westerners not wanting a Londoner champion holds even more truth in the reverse. Dale Martins seemingly accepted not having any British champions - and ironically they didn't want their very own Assirati either!

And in the face of all this Dale Martin's made a great go of their promotion and led the way through the gloriously televised sixties.

We discussed this a few weeks ago. My whimsical creating of MATSGA - Make The South Great Again - isn't really so whimsical. Dale Martin, under the direction of Mick McManus, went from having no British Champions to just about having them all in the course of less than ten years. This is a quite remarkable turn of events.

It all comes back to our wonderment at just how these various JP promoters managed to make it all work and grant concessions. The facts would seem to indicate that newbie JP promoter Dale Martin had little leverage in 1952; but the balance of power changed ten years later.

My impression is that it all had to do with the tv contract, which McManus seemed to command. But it could equally be that a tv producer, perhaps guided by Kent Walton, deemed these endlessly dour northen champions not good viewing and, to get on World of Sport in 1964, they had to promise Ricki Starr, Billy Two Rivers, An Outlaw, Les Kellett, Tag-Team-Time, and niggly Mick. Champions in themselves became much lower lights alongside these colourful bill-toppers.

ruslan-pashayev

"I just have to comment on this. They sure didn't want him, or anyone else...OUTSIDE their native lands, and I am talking about the native JPs lands, which is GREATER MANCHESTER (call it SOUTH LANCASHIRE) and WEST YORKSHIRE. The JP (I am talking the original JP without DM) functioned and was run and operated like a SICILIAN CLAN (call it MAFIA) because those were people, the families from the same areas, basically neighbors, who owned pro wrestling there for generations, and pro wrestlers profession often time was inherited the 50s 60s 70s stars were kids of the stars from the all-in era, the 30s. Yup Assirati didn't belong the NORTH WEST PRO WRESTLING clan hence... why on Earth they would want someone like him to be their main money making machine, again money should stay WITHIN THE FAMILY. Thank You, R"

You could well be spot on there Ruslan.

---More likely that the promoters just didn't want Assirati as champion because he was difficult to manage. 1951 was pre Joint Promotions. But in March 1949 the British Wrestling Promoters Association had been formed, membership of Morrell, Beresford, Wryton, Relwyskow, and Dale Martin (i.e just like Joint). They chose their own nominated champion, the Lord Mountevans Champion, and it looks like they did not want Assirati.---

I just have to comment on this. They sure didn't want him, or anyone else...OUTSIDE their native lands, and I am talking about the native JPs lands, which is GREATER MANCHESTER (call it SOUTH LANCASHIRE) and WEST YORKSHIRE. The JP (I am talking the original JP without DM) functioned and was run and operated like a SICILIAN CLAN (call it MAFIA) because those were people, the families from the same areas, basically neighbors, who owned pro wrestling there for generations, and pro wrestlers profession often time was inherited the 50s 60s 70s stars were kids of the stars from the all-in era, the 30s. Yup Assirati didn't belong the NORTH WEST PRO WRESTLING clan hence... why on Earth they would want someone like him to be their main money making machine, again money should stay WITHIN THE FAMILY. Thank You, R

I also find the use of the word interim to make the whole situation more interesting. Such interim champions are found in today's UFC (MMA) promotion. It's usually a way to promote another champion while the first one is out injured or suspended by the athletic commission. What's new is old.

ruslan-pashayev wrote

• now I have a question to Hack..."it was decided by all promoters to sponsor a heavyweight tournament with the winner of this to be recognized as the "interim" champion." Are they serious about it?! Sounds a bit like another rasslin-myth...?! And finals in Middlesborough info is even more confusing? also when they say all promoters...do they mean JP or "something else". These all are genuine questions, by the way. Thanks.

Thanks Mike for the press preview and your comments about the heavyweight situation at that time.

Now, young Ruslan, I'm not sure why this question is directed at me. Is it because of a previous comment I've made and you think you've got me got me cornered? Or is it, as you say, a genuine question and want to know if I have the answer.

Let's assume the latter.

How the 'eck would I know? How would any of us "know"? None of us "know." All we have are opinions based on what we have read and what we are told. And we all know that all sources in wrestling should be treated with caution. What's that saying of "Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear." Or is it the other way round?

"Sounds a bit like another rasslin-myth...?" Goodness, you've become so much more sceptical since you first joined us. At least you've learned something.

Well, it sounds to me like a myth or a load of cobblers? (Hopefully a term you understand Ruslan. More crude variations are available).

The Middlesbrough tournament final in which Baldwin beat Armstrong in Middlesbrough was on 3rd August, 1951.

Did Assirati go to India in 1950? Ray Plunkett's listings include matches for Bert in the UK in every month of 1950. We know he left for for his extensive tour of Singapore, Malaysia, Ceylon, India, Pakistan and South Africa on1st August 1952. Mike will know if internet references to an India tour in 1950 are accurate.

If he did go to India in 1950 this could be an excuse to remove the title, but then the new champion would hardly be considered interim.

I find it hard to understand how the heavyweight tournament was a result of Assirati's absence. Myth or cobblers?

More likely that the promoters just didn't want Assirati as champion because he was difficult to manage. 1951 was pre Joint Promotions. But in March 1949 the British Wrestling Promoters Association had been formed, membership of Morrell, Beresford, Wryton, Relwyskow, and Dale Martin (i.e just like Joint). They chose their own nominated champion, the Lord Mountevans Champion, and it looks like they did not want Assirati.

So, the answer to "all promoters" would be the above, the BWPA (later Joint Promotions) members.

The oddity is the use of this term "interim." Pro wrestling promoters always presented their matches as competitive. Use of the word "interim" suggests this is a temporary arrangement and the re-instatement of Assirati has been pre-arranged. At best this is a clumsy choice of wording in 1955, used retrospectively in 1955 but would not have been used at the time Baldwin won the title.

Mike is by far the most knowledgeable Assirati person, some definite dates of travel and who was billing Bert as champion when and where would be helpful. But this is wrestling, we weren't meant to understand.

Yes it was decided by all wrestling promoters to have a tournament and pick an interim champion, one tournament was held at St James Hall Newcastle for an example. People must understand how wrestling was run in these time`s, it was all about EVERYONE making as much money as possible, Assirati went off for three years working abroad not four years, and while he was away he had offers to return to London to take part in matches, one was going to be against "Tiger" Joe Robinson, but they couldn`t agree terms, so all the promoters wanted to pick someone they could work with, and use and Baldwin fitted the bill, although other top British wrestlers beat him while he was the champion like B.B.Johnson and Francis Gregory who knocked him out, he was always billed as the champion. Joe D`Orazio covered the bout in the run up to the match, and the weeks after the match, in the Weekly Sporting Review, and I have written from his coloum, including the result. D`Orazio further contends that the match was for the undisputed British heavyweight championship, and belt, but no belt was presented to Bert at the end of the match, and no photo exists of Bert ever wearing a belt to my knowledge, it seems Dale Martins wanted to earn big money from this match, Bert was a big crowd puller, but still keep their champion, claiming the match was for the official championship, but did not include the Mountevans Belt, because they found it hard to work with Assirati, they wanted to keep using Baldwin, so we then had two champions, like when Douglas Clark beat Atholl Oakley in March 1931, and became the first official British Catch heavyweight champion, while Oakley claimed it was not for the "all-In" championship, and therefore he could still wrestle around the country wrestling his friends, and earning money, while conning the wrestling public, then when he was chased out of wrestling, and exposed he decides to drop the title to his friend Bill Garnon in 1934, who lost it in his first defence to Douglas Clark. You just couldn`t write it, no one would believe it..........Dale Martins stopped using Bert in early 1956, they tried to force him to retire, but he would have none of it and started his own wrestling promotions up, and down the country, and finally retired in May 1960.

I have the wrestling poster (above), wrestling programme, wrestling photo before the match with Lou Marco, and the write up from the Weekly Sporting Review............ nuff said.........

Best for now Mike............

now I have a question to Hack..."it was decided by all promoters to sponsor a heavyweight tournament with the winner of this to be recognized as the "interim" champion." Are they serious about it?! Sounds a bit like another rasslin-myth...?! And finals in Middlesborough info is even more confusing? also when they say all promoters...do they mean JP or "something else". These all are genuine questions, by the way. Thanks.

Mike, hello, thank you very much for sharing this priceless article. Do you have a match report article too in your collection? Thank you again.

Very interesting article Mike, Thank you.

In the last line, does "Substitute" mean what I would have called a "Submission"?