BARTELLI 1950-MOONLIGHTING IN SOUTHEND!!

I've just read in the July 1963 issue of The Wrestler (I'm a bit behind with my reading) that they reported the death of Patsy Hatgate, aged 67. They said that although the national press had reported his long service as a boxing M.C. they had overlooked his years as promoter at Southend's Gliderdome.

Thanks MM. Yes I remember it now. Pat Hatgate was a well known boxing M. C. and was M.C. at Blackfriars Ring. I couldn't see any connection he had with Southend.

It would be helpful if Main Mask shared more of the programme if he has it, or told us the source of the image.

Meanwhile. About the Gliderdome

https://sarfend.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1265464566

Okay Main Mask I'm feeling generous tonight and reviving this magical mystery thread. I'm no less sceptical but I did have a thought, and they are rare opportunities not to be missed.

So, what if Bartelli was playing footloose and fancy free in 1950? Then he agrees to go down to Marino in 1951. Norman Morrell had won a libel case against Arthur Wright. Dale Martin were still recognising their own Arena champions in 1951. Yet they all claimed to be working together as members of the British Wrestling Promoter's Association.

Maybe in 1951 one of them said, "Listen lads if we are going to make serious money we need to be more serious about Co operation. " Leading to Joint Promotions formation in 1952.

Main Mask: "The Only Caviat That I would Add is That-in his Own Words!-WRIGHT-who he

refers to as 'the Man'!!- told him his Masked Run would Only Probably Last 6

Months in order to Persuade Young GEOFF to Don The HOOD in the First

Place as he Showed Great Reluctance Initially!!'

I don't want to over-egg this because as I said previously none of us know and on balance I think this was not Bartelli. Anglo thinks on balance it was, fair enough.

But I feel obliged to comment on this opinion taken from Bartelli's book, which was the world as he would want us to view it. It's nonsense to say Arthur Wright would say he would last 6 months. Arthur was paying the wages. Arthur could decide whether Bartelli lasted 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years or 60 years. Arthur wanted the money back on his loan. It would definitely be more than 6 months, 6 years or as long as it needed. And no I'm still not adamant this was not Bartelli. I just think it very unlikely.

I still fail to follow your logic, Hack, and "balance of probability."

It seems to me:

- it starts as Jeff Conder, a name we know was used by Geoff in the Far East just a few years before.

- scarcely an outstanding name. Nobody else would have been aware of it to copy it.

- the time is right.

- ok he was already working as Bartelli, but in 1950 nobody knew that his local masked gigs in the Potteries would lead to thirty years of fame as Count Bartelli.

- Pat Hagate was affiliated alongside Wryton. Shenanigans unlikely.

For me, the balance of probability is that this WAS INDEED Geoff. And that Wryton got him the Gliderdrome run. Possibly with some unclear espionage mission on the London coast.

The onus is on someone to prove this is not the case.

I agree with Main Mask that this is wrestling and anything is possible. We don't know what was going on. Lou Marco really is a fly in the ointment, at a time when the various promoters had their own expansionist ideals.

My simple logic is this. Young Geoff thought: "this Count Bartelli gig is all right, but I am limited to a few venues in the Potteries and a limited pool of opponents. Some of these toughies are not enjoying having to let me go over. I'm a good-looking boy, the longer term safer bet will be to get my face known. Like all the masked men, Bartelli will just get copied in the end." "But Jeff Conder simply didn't cut the mustard and he found himself going down to the likes of Red MacKenzie. He weighed it all up: the travelling to far flug Sarrfend, the lack of invincibility to soothe his ego, Arthur's protective wing.

At a time when the promoters were manoeuvring their positions on the chessboard that would lead to Joint Promotions, it just took Geoff a couple of years to realise he was best off on his bike to Crewe and Nantwich, and with various feuds in Hanley skilfully created for him by Arthur. And his garage was booming.

Main Mask

"HACK Seems ADAMANT!!- That it CAN'T be BARTELLI?"

No, not adamant at all. None of us know. I just think the balance of probability is that it was not Bartelli for the reasons given

Always like seeing stuff from the Gliderdrome. Do you have the rest of the programme? The officials tend to give hints to the promoter, etc.

It's not a case of dismissing evidence it's just that there is no evidence. I agree with Anglo Italian that the name Conda (I don't recall Conder previously but spelling wasn't their strong point) seems to us to have insufficient value to be worth copying. But, that's what we thought when we considered Jess Conda and clearly that promoter thought it did have value.

Two years before the formation of Joint Promotions Arthur Wright could have been testing new waters. But if he used Bartelli to gather evidence it doesn't make sense to use this name which Dales would certainly know and would be aware he worked mostly for Wryton, posibly exclusively.

Then there us the Bartelli - Wright connection which would surely stop Bartelli from moonlighting. We need more information.

I'm surprised to see you dismissing the evidence so readily, Hack.

One small corroborating point is that Red MacKenzie was a heavyweight like Bartelli; so we cannot exclude Bartelli on weights basis.

I can't see why you think Arthur Wright would have been so horrified. Mind you, it's not completely clear whether this is an early JP bill. But JPs hadn't formed fully then; Dale Martin's were three years off joining in. This looks looks to me like an early foray perhaps BY Arthur Wright into a Dale Martin stronghold. Specifically sending along his trusty but without revealing to any Dale Martin spies in the arena anything about Count Bartelli.

But the striking evidence - or am I missing something? - is the name Jeff Conder. Probably a fairly unknown name at the time (save at the Gliderdrome). Hardly a name anyone else would want to copy à la Mick McManners.

I can't see how Jesse comes into the equation.

I must say, if you hadn't raised doubts, Hack, and you seem fairly sure it's not CB, well, I wouldn't have had any doubts at all.

How strange for you and I to have wildly differing opinions!

Main Mask - what have you started???? Tell us more about your snippet: who is the promoter?

Let's not assume Jeff did want to do this. It's unlikely he did. His close personal and financial relationship with Arthur Wright would make it a risk too great. If Arthur was in agreement he could have a night off from the mask this is not a name he would chose, much too obvious. Bartelli was in Bury the following night. Not impossible but very unlikely.

In 1950 Pat Hagate was a member of the Wrestling Federation of Great Britain, as were Wryton Promotions. Simultaneously Wryton were also part of the British Wrestling Promoters Association, Hagate was not. It was the BWPA that morphed into Joint Promotions two years later.

This is Jeff, not Jesse. Makes me also wonder why Jeff would want to do this. Certainly these old timers liked to live life on the edge.

But here, Jeff has even become a Gilderdrome favourite.

I agree with you Main Mask in that he is choosing a far flung place from home if it is Jeff.

I can only imagine he had family relationships or business in Southend.

I found this report about the venue, intriguingly with northern wrestlers named, even though the Gliderdome was London-by-the-Sea.

We dismissed Bartelli as Jesse after finding them both working on the same night. I doubt that this was Bartelli.

Circa 60/61 Jack Taylor used this trick billing Jesse Conda on quite a few occasions or did he use Bartelli himself. Were they mates.

Can't remember if we found him billed as Bartelli somewhere on one of the nights in question to point towards Bartelli not doing this.

Did he do it it 1950 at Southend with these wrestlers , I lean towards it not being him.

Did he ever wrestle pre 66 without the mask , probably. Even Kendo did it didn't he (in Spain)

But pure proof one way or the other eludes The Time Cop.