Bernard's Ultimate Match

Here's a topic pf Bernard's that shouldn't be forgotten so we've transferred it from the old forum. Let's revive this one, come on new posters.

The Ultimate Match

Bernard Hughes

If you had the ability to transport wrestlers across a time span, enabling you to match wrestlers with both at their peak,who would you choose for your ultimate match?

Of course that may be too easy, so the rules for this little game are that they must have fought in UK in the heritage years, you must not have seen any of the wrestlers live, nor on TV, youtube or video etc. This means that you will be going on reputation, what you have read or word of mouth only. For instance, I could have said Bert Assirati vs Billy Robinson, but I saw Bert live and have seen Billy on youtube etc. This makes your task a bit harder and you will have to think about it.

After due consideration my Ultimate Match would be Dominic Pye vs Lou Thesz.

Please will you all have a go? This could throw up some interesting answers.

SaxonWolf

Interesting idea Bernard, I may need more than one go at this?

I will say, the old master himself, Billy Riley, take on one of the last great US shooters, Dick Cardinal, in a real shoot!

Anglo Italian

Yes, it's impossible to escape the idea of a real shoot coming into it. Assirati is fascintaing full-stop. Assirati and Gordienko appeal.

Billy Riley versus anyone, but Clayton Thomson might be interesting. Oh, just saw your Billy Riley, Saxonwolf, telepathy. But if we take the shoot aspect away and think Show: Dr Death v Les Kellett (even though Les probably opposed a few ringers!).

Wayne Bridges and Albert Wall at their peaks would have been evenly matched.

Lots of dream matches with Andy Robin, simply because he didn't travel. Like to have seen Bert let loose on him, too!

And Hackenschmidt! Of course, and someone like Bruno or Mal Kirk may have made it fun.

While I thought of those I realised how lucky we were that we did actually see lots of dream matches.

Ron Historyo

What a fantastic thread as far as I am concerned and I hope people really understand the rules. No video footage or memory being the key and reputation only.

I will add my own theme for mine. If I had seen a wrestling bill The Ghoul v Zebra Kid loser to unmask, I would have travelled 150 miles in my car to get to it in my peak period. The masked man idea with a good pro working it was so wonderful.

Bernard's idea should get at least a hundred posts.

Bernard Hughes

Thanks for that Ron.

Sax -one query, did Dick Cardinal ( who he?) appear in the UK in the years required?

To Anglo- come on Anglo, look at the rules, are you saying that you did not see any of your selections live or onTV, youtube etc.?

Very interesting Ron. I did see The Ghoul vs The Vampire, loser to unmask.

The Vampire was our old friend from Liverpool-Bill Benny.

SaxonWolf

Good point, I need to see if he wrestled in the UK. He was a pro wrestler but could really shoot.

OK, while I check that, I will modify it to Billy Riley v Lou Thesz

David Mantell

Or more to the point, Billy Riley vs George Tragos. Or even Billy Riley vs Ad Santel

Bernard Hughes

Well, Billy Riley, one of the top old timers looks to be an early favourite. I think that Lou Thesz will also have some backers.

Anglo, I think that you have to go back in time a bit for your selection. Most of the bouts later can be seen on youtube etc. Which for the purpose of this little exercise is banned. Carry on like this and I will have to disqualify you.

Anglo Italian

I hang my head in shame, Bernard, and now understand my lousy English O-level result.

"Read the question," they used to say to me. But I was the Leon Arras of the class.

Harold Angus v Billy Riley.

Max Bambula v Kurt Zehe.

Tommy Mann v Paul Lincoln.

Black Mask v Dwight J Ingleburgh.

Oh, and for Bernard:

Norman Walsh v .................Ernie Baldwin.

Bernard Hughes

Hi Anglo- First public warning!

I said ultimate match- That is ONE. Thanks for the afterthought, I saw that match more than once

David Mantell

Did George Kidd and Johnny Saint ever wrestle each other in public? That would be quite something!

Bernard Hughes

Hi David. You know more about which wrestlers fought for which promoters than I ever will.

If at any time Saint and Kidd were aligned under the same promoter, it would be likely that they did meet.

As I understand the situation ,Saint started wrestling in the 1960's and Kidd did not retire until 1976.

If this is correct and if they were ever used by the same promoter, wouldn't the younger man's reputation have been built up, losing at first until he was on a par with the old master?

A series like that would put bums on seats and yet we have no information on it. Do you have the information re the promoters using the 2 boys?

SaxonWolf

I would be surprised if Johnny Saint never met George Kidd, but have not found any record of it yet. Incidentally, I could be wrong, but actually have Saint being the older of the two by two years!, No doubt someone can tell me if I am wrong.

Ron Historyo

Sorry Sax I think you are wrong.

I make George Kidd 1925 and Johnny Saint 1941

powerlock

Johnny Saint made his professional debut losing against Colin McDonald in 1958 I believe it was in Tynemouth.

Kent Walton used to go on about George Kidd and Johnny Saint almost as Saint had become Kidd's protege and began using some of Kidd's moves especially after Kidd's retirement, I would imagine they might well have met in the ring, but in later years Kidd's appearances were fairly sporadic which would lessen the chances of a bout.

Bernard Hughes

Hi All. I'm sure that Kidd was older than Saint and also that he taught him many of the moves later in Kidd's career. You can see many similarities in style in videos etc.

Ron Historyo

I think they met and I seem to remember Kent Walton saying that Kidd wanted Saint to succeed him and that they had fought to a draw. Saint could not quite beat him but had caught him up in effect.

Tom H

Getting back to the Ultimate Match. A heavyweight championship match between Jack Sherry and the Ghoul. Both wrestlers would have something to lose, Sherry his title and the Ghoul his mask. I just hope that Sherry fits in the with heritage years.

Dave Sutherland

It would have to be Lou Thesz v Digger Rowell ;)

Ron Historyo

Come on Guys, I can't believe some of the replies.

This is a great idea from Bernard and the Rules are simple.

1. Pick two wrestlers you never saw. (TV or Live)

2. Check that there is no footage of them on the web

Then pick an ulitimate match.

I picked Zebra Kid (the Bolas version) v The Ghoul (Bomber John Bates version)

Correct me if I am wrong. There is no footage of these.

Can we see some more picks. It ain't easy because there is footage of many top men.

Bernard Hughes

Hi Ron. I like your choices.

For me my greatest regret re. wrestle watching was to have never seen Dominic Pye. I saw his Dad, Jack, quite a few times but Dominic I missed.

My other pick of Lou Thesz,is simply because in my time he was recognised as the top man in the job world wide.

So, Dominic Pye vs Lou Thesz for me, but I'm sure ,like your choices, there must be quite a few more juicy match-ups out there.

Hack

I'm going for Man Mountain Bill Benny v Jim Foy

ashley080808

Gonna have to go with Elmo on this one, seeing as Jim was my grandad :)

Hack

Sounds a good enough reason Ashley.

Do you have any memories of your grandad that you can share with us?

John Shelvey

Hi Bernard. Whilst I think of an answer to your question, I have one for yourself. How is it you haven't seen Thesz on Youtube as there is a growing mountain of him there, including documentarys?

Ron Historyo

Ashley if you are watching this thread. Always great to see people make a first post.

If you look in Galleries and 1940's Clips you will see this Bill and also pictures number 18 and 19 featuring your grandad

Bernard Hughes

Hi Ron ,probably because I never looked.

I'm not a great fan of youtube and most of the wrestlers that I saw in my early (impressionable) days do not appear on there.

Hack

I like the sound of Battling Pete, the Wigan Whippet.

Would like to see him against Roughhouse Ron, the Preston Pigeon.

Bernard Hughes

Hi Ron. I have now watched 4 of Lou Thesz's fights on youtube. I am still not impressed with that medium, but I guess you have to take it as there is very little else.

It seems that the Japanese took to videoing bouts more thananyone else in those days. Not keen on the screen being covered in Japanese script or the constant jabber that i can't understand.

I thought for a world champion, Thesz seemed a little churlish, some of the things that he did were unnecessary. Perhaps that is how he held the title so long. I am certain that he must have come over better in the flesh.

Ron Historyo

Hi Bernard, you know I will talk with you anytime.

In this instance you have me mixed up with John Shelvey.

Not to worry though... You are the man.

Bernard Hughes

Apologies to Ron and John. Hopefully this is now sorted.

I am still not a lover of youtube, but I don't see much alternative.

Does anyone know if wrestling DVD s can be purchased where action from the 50's has been transferred onto discs?

Ron Historyo

Got my doubts that there is much footage like that Bernard. I would love to see some of the Bill Robinson stuff before he left Britain.

Would not mind evaluating Alan Garfield who Anglo holds in such high esteem. Not to mention Ghoul and Zebra Kid

David Mantell

It's possble (but not as easy as it once was) to save Youtube videos to hard-drive. They can then be burned to DVD-R and you can then store them in a CD case and design and print a proper liner for the case. I have a collection of 60-70 DVDs of Youtube/Facebook/etc videos I've made including many of both British and American wrestling.

Bernard Hughes

I don't want to go off thread on this site, but thanks for your answer David.

I have never seen videos of British Wrestling from the early 1950 s . Do they exist?

I would love to see a video of my friend Norman Walsh wrestling again. Is it possible to do this?

David Mantell

Not commercially released ones AFAIK.

There are Pathe newsclips online and you could do as I suggested to make DVDs (come to that, you could have done this with the clips on Pathé's own site for many years) but there are no compilations you can (legally) buy.

matey dave

are you encouraging father bernard of the sacred waters to infring copyright. feel temptation should not put before the holy father

ashley080808

Many many Ron thanks for the pointer for looking atb the fighting bill photos, and Hack i`ll make sure when i`ve a little more time (really busy workwize) i`ll share some memories about my grampa, one of my favourite things to quote is something he taught me at a in my teens when I asked to lend some money off him is 'never a lender nor a borrower be' and I still use it today :) oh and no he never lent me the money lol

Bernard Hughes

Uncalled for comments, Matey Dave.

Debates on Religion and politics start arguments.Everyone has a different view.

John Shelvey

Hi Barnard. O.K. wet lettuce smack down coming your way! You don't like youtube? Why? I guess you have been there viewed some unsavoury content and decided to cut off your nose to spite your face and haven't been back since?! As a wrestling fan, you would have read or heard of the likes of Strangler Lewis, Earl Caddock, Jim Londos, Gus Sonnenberg, Verne Gagne, Don Leo Jonathan, Red Bastien, Lord Carlton, Athol Oakley, Gotch, Inoki, Hoffman, Kiniski, Mortier, Sammartino and our guys Street, Saint, Barnes, Davies, Szakacs, Joynson, Rocco, Finlay, etc.etc. Well these and many others are right there on youtube free for you to watch at anytime. Will you enjoy everything you see? No. So you click and move on to the next match or the next wrestler or the next wrestling documentary or wrestling interview of which there are many and several are beauties!

Once upon a time, be able to see Thesz in Japan in the 1950s defending his International Title against Rickie Dozan was just a pie in the sky dream. Then some years ago it became available although hard to get, on video, then later at a price on DVD, but now you can watch it in comfort of your own home, with a cuppa and a sarnie, when you want, for nowt! So Bernard, give it a go, write down some names, get on to y.tube, punch in those names and see what you can find. Type in the words 'wrestling documentary' and see where it takes you. I will be very suprised if you don't suprise yourself and see that you can still view good to great wrestling content within arms reach and just a couple of clicks. One match in particular you should have a 'butchers' at is Frenchmen Billy Catanzarou & Gil Cesca. Thirty plus minutes of fantastic wrestling (no rounds) which has everything (apart from the dirty stuff) we all would have loved to have been a witness to when we were much younger! Great chain wrestling, drop kicks, even on a few occassions, cracking forearm smashes. This has the lot and would have graced any British wrestling card back in 'the day' Good viewing Bernard!

Bernard Hughes

Thanks John, I am trying, but I think it is a lot of "what you got used to" as you get older.

I hope that makes sense to you.

John Shelvey

Bernard, watch the match, let me know what you think!

Bernard Hughes

Well John, I watched that match .Catanzarou vs Cesca.

The wrestling was excellent, more of the style that i was used to. I enjoyed that bit.

Due to my ignorance ,I could not understsnd the commentary, in French.

I did not like the lack of colour, it was in black and white.

I did not enjoy sitting in front of the screen for 30 odd minutes.

Would I make a regular habit of it? - unlikely.

Thank you for trying!

John Shelvey

You didn't need to know French, you enjoyed it! The first six years of watching wrestling it was always black and white and I'm pretty sure you were watching t.v. in the 60s in B&W and you enjoyed it! You did sit in front of the screen for 30 odd minutes and.....I'm glad you enjoyed it!. Now then how about Jim Breaks v Adrian Street parts one and two?

Bernard Hughes

Hi John. I watched the match as you suggested. All 3 parts. Yes that was better. Being in colour helped. Perhaps the commentary being familiar was more acceptable

The wrestling was ,once again, excellent and in the best British style. The better colour , the camera position and close up was a great improvement.

I think it must be sitting so close in front of a small screen is putting me off.. No atmosphere?

I will keep trying as you say but I guess I just long for the old days at St. James' Hall. Thanks anyway.

grahambrook

There's always going to be someone who will make a foolish contribution so allow it to be me; how about staging a contest with no rules or referee - Hans Streiger vs Jimmy Saville?

John Shelvey

To get you thinking Bernard, if you could repeat that whole experience again and yes I guess we are back to 'going back in time' and if you could change say, ONE thing only, would you A not change a thing, or B change (your choice, maybe modern seating, air con, merchandise, etc) what?

Bernard Hughes

Hi John, If I was able to change one thing, I would have liked to have seen the mingling that people talk about in the 70 'and 80's being commonplace in the 1950's.. This would have given a lot more punters the ability to talk to all and sundry. I think that this would have been enjoyable and interesting. In those days it was more of a closed shop, where you had to pay for introductions to promoters, and wrestlers generally would not converse with the "outsiders"

CHRIS NEWMAN

Funnily enough - and with you in mind Bernard - I too was gonna go "Ghoul v Zebra Kid" .. but "Silver Surfboarder" Ron Historyo beat me to the finishing move & fair play to him.

Now I never saw Jackie Pallo's hero - an "Eye For An Eye with Dirty Jack Pye". But how about a clash between Dirty Jack one of the greatest wrestling villains of all and former wrestler and later legendary ref "Max Ward". Just a thought& is this within the rule boundaries.

Now then Bernard, as its Wrestling we are talking about here,"Rules" are of course made to be broken, whatever foundations you've laid down in stone. So I'm gonna demand a rematch between "Russian Lion Hackenschmidt" (well out of Heritage years) against a "Terrible Turk" who clearly didn't do himself justice back at wrestlings dawn of time. Or maybe another meeting between Hackenschmidt & Gotch. Is it Karl Gotch his full name? And who won that 1908 clash? What a fantastic photo of it @56 in the "100 best photo" section of W.H.

Where was the contest held and what's that Brazilian flag emblem doing on the ring apron I wonder?

Looking again at that fantastic pic it doesn't necessarily even look like the early ninetenn hundreds. What a lovely moment though captured in time.

Now for the lighter side - another "Hack" and another ultimate match. Our own editor against the fellah who is obviously going to be masked - who might one day be responsible for forgetting to order-in the Bank's Bitter into Hack's local supermarket. Only one winner of that contest. Warmest greetings Lexicon Kid (Chris).

Bill Smith

How about a special stipulations match................Bert Asiratti versus Shirley Crabtree.

Bert has to catch Shirley,who will run as fast as he can away from Bert,if he does Shirley has the option to submit or retire,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oops I think this did happen and although Bert did not catch Shirley Big Shirl retired (for a few years) anyway