Champs didn't draw but belts gave wrestling a legitimacy, the champ was generally a safe pair of hands who could be trusted both in and out of the ring. The promoters were interested in one thing, making money and that was their sole aim, If straight 'legitimate' wrestling drew the crowds and money the promoters would have filled their cards with it, but it didn't hence the personalities, villains, blue eyes and gimmicks.
yes and no. collecting info about who were champs and about the titles and etc is part of history job, as well as collecting facts about who were the best-sellers of a certain era is. both are essential and equally important parts of wrestling history job. and it is also important from the point of understanding the "business" part of it...and how corrupt and pure nepotism it was, lol. yup I said it...looks like JP was operated like a "family business" similar in its nature to the one from coppola's god-father movies lol.
Let's be specific, Ruslan, in terms of what you assert:
"belted people are belted because they were friends, had ties and connections with the promoters, bosses who owned the game"
Dale Martin was the biggest promoter in the land but did not (could not?) claim one single national belt. For sure, Dale Martin was not happy about this. But they could do nothing about it. Later, certainly, McManus would be inserted even to defeat Dempsey at times. But at the time we are discussing, Dale Martin couldn't force McManus though as champion because Dempsey might have embarrassed him.
Same thing at other weights with the likes of Logan, Marino, and possibly even George Kidd. Looks like Billy Riley, at that time, coveted the British championships...and let the others get on with Mickey Mouse European, World and regional titles.
----Dale Martin couldn't force McManus though as champion because Dempsey might have embarrassed him.----
a pure joke. this is pro wrestling and it is not about "embarassing" anyone, cmon. That is what "they" wanted you to believe in. Like I said, a rudiment of those pro wrestling times, when promoter fooled betters...etc.
By the way McManus was the British Welterweight Champion in Dale Martin promotion when they were still independent, in the early 1950s, and had their own champs in all weight classes, during the times before they joined JP, the pre JP Era.
JP a North-West based pro wrestling syndicate, hence only their men got to partake in tasting the championship pie, lol, being champs.
I put here the Jack Sherry video...to be honest I DID NOT SEE MUCH OF WRESTLING on this video...actually I did not see it at all. You can talk about how he was legit and tough and etc whole day every day...but to watch this I would not pay a broken dime, lol. very poor quality 2 drunks brawl.
"And the whole "legitimacy" myth has nothing to do with it. "
It was certainly no myth Ruslan. It had everything to do with it. It was essential. Pro wrestling was all about colour, excitement, entertainment. The men who drew the crowds were the Jackie Pallo's, Ghouls, Wildman of Borneo, Les Kellett, Mick McManus. But wrestling couldn't survive on gimmicks alone. There had to be credibility that this was for real. The likes of Dr Death, the Wildman of Borneo, Ricky Starr and Quasimodo couldn't bring that credibility, and even big names like McManus and Pallo were acknowledged as having limited technical ability. The champions in the photo couldn't pull the punters alone, but they brought credibility to wrestling in general and the colourful personas also.
In the 1980s that credibility wasn't considered necessary, and the result was that the crowds dwindled.
why bringing up "gimmicks"...you do not have to be a babyface, or heel, or terrible turk or golden greek or a jap a duke or a count to necessary draw crowds...as for me personally there is ONLY one legitimacy in pro wrestling, it is an ability of wrestlers to produce a good looking "wrestling showcase", I insist "wrestling". with a lot of wrestling tricks...get into holds get out of holds with speed and leverage and connection...knowledge of this...makes it a good pro wrestling match...at least for me. I do not care if the wrestling person wears a robe or a beard or a crown...if they exhibit good quality wrestling then I am ALL IN FOR THAT.
question for you what are your tastes about? what it is that keeps you watching a certain wrestling match...its not like with football it is NOT your team playing right...they have to show what they claim they know. meaning some good wrestling right?
Sorry Ruslan, you've gone completely off the point of the question you posed. That was, who were the big draws? Numerous replies have told you Starr, McManus, Pallo, Logan, Dr Death, Kellett, Pye.
You then expressed surprise that none of the champions were proposed. And I've told you why. Again that wasn't good enough for you and you dismissed legitimacy, which was their role in wrestling.
cannot agree with you my friend. I think I am very on point. if the wrestlers who are the most popular and de facto are the biggest draw aren't champs...then who cares who the "champs" are, lol. I do not watch it for the so called "champs" I watch it for who produces the best "wrestling showcase".
now I will ask you another question, we have a very prestigious title the Royal Albert Hall annual tourney championship...if I remember it right a record man was Tibor Szakacs. Why do you think he was chosen to be the multiple time winner of the most prestigious elimination tourney in the country?
"their "belts" were based on the "connections" they had with the "bosses" owners of the game not on their actual ability to draw the crowds and pack arenas, and that is what the profession of pro wrestling is and always was about, it is about selling tickets it was like that in the 1860s and it was the same in the 1960s. "
Not their ability to draw crowds, but the business is about selling tickets ....? Sounds contradictory.
I think you may be analysing things from an angle where a sole promoter was in charge, as in some regions of North America. At the time of that fifties photo, there were about seven promoters who agreed on the Joint Promotions champions. There would have been no way they would have agreed on such a dour, unflashy group of wrestlers as champions, practically clones of each other. And almost all from a tiny geographical area. No way that can have been a commercial decision. In this context, the element of true "shooting" ability, or whatever Snakepit rules may be defined as, seems clearly to have been the very non-commercial basis for determining the British champions.
Morrell and Relwyskow ensured their true amateur prowess and heritage mattered in the professional setting. A few years later they realised this wasn't the best across-the-board approach.
Anglo, thanks, I put 2 ideas in one sentence. my bad. but No contradictory. I should have had them in 2 different sentences. 1. belted people are belted because they were friends, had ties and connections with the promoters, bosses who owned the game it is ONLY and solely because of that they were champs. 2. it is NOT would it should be if it was a FAIR BUSINESS, not a mafia like (lol) "family business". In the fair business the "best selling wrestler" should logically be "belted". Is it any better for ya? So to say...if JACK PYE WAS THE BEST SELLER IN THE UK FOR 3O YEARS straight...he logically should have been given opportunity TO HAVE A CHAMPIONSHIP. Anyways.
re relws and morrelss lol...they pushed into champs their "country-men" lol the west yorks men, that is all there was. no need to over think it. same with snakepit they pushed their gyms students. cmon.
sorry not gonna comment much on this - true "shooting" ability. it is a pure joke I am assuming. this is lol. I do not even consider that. something that never existed. and was and still is a rudiment of those pro wrestling times when promoters were actively fooling betters...who wasted their moneyz.
I'm a little too young to recall the Pye/Benny era but as a fan in the seventies I would have thought Starr, Two Rivers, Mc.Manus, Pallo and Kellett. As a promoter, definitely Kellett for me.
Thank You Ron, appreciate. If we speak of Jack Pye, who would you say were among his best "ring partners", I mean his biggest "opponents". Because it takes "two to tango".
Had a careful look at this using 1950's Belle Vue. Often repeated matches with Anaconda , Bill Benny , Farmers Boy , Alf Robinson , Vic Hessle. Careful though because the Dick Rogers Roster was not as big as Joint Promotions. He looked pretty spread out at Blackpool and even Newcastle , but a good show with the Ghoul as they were both showmen. I don't think he did Assirati much , they were opposites . Bert would not have been Jack Pyes idea of a nights work although that's just an opinion.
Billing like this was not a gimmick , Jack Pye had earned it. I should imagine to do this grudge script with Jack Pye near the end of Jack's career would have been great for Dennis Mitchell.
Ron, thank you so much for sharing these bills. Phenomenal research, phenomenal bills. And great history of great wrestling times!!! When I think of pro wrestling in Lancashire the first venue (place) that pops in my mind is Belle Vue. Iconic place with pro wrestling legacy since 1840s.
1950s I would agree with Jack Pye, for longevity and worked a large geographical area, cutting back to the north only in his last few years. The Ghoul was another big name.
In the 1960s I'd say McManus. But it's not a straightforward question. McManus in areas where he was rarely seen would definitely draw them in as the most well known wrestler who was on tv most often, but in those southern halls where he was a regular feature he must have lost his shine. Big names in the sixties - McManus, Pallo, Kellett.
In the late 70s and 80s it would be Shirley Crabtree/Big Daddy, say it quietly.
For longevity it would probably be Mick McManus and Big Daddy also as Shirley Crabtree, but you cant disregard Jack Pye. We could probably go into at double figures and they would all have a valid reason to be there. Do you mean takings or punters by box office Ruslan?, I am working off punters.
Champs didn't draw but belts gave wrestling a legitimacy, the champ was generally a safe pair of hands who could be trusted both in and out of the ring. The promoters were interested in one thing, making money and that was their sole aim, If straight 'legitimate' wrestling drew the crowds and money the promoters would have filled their cards with it, but it didn't hence the personalities, villains, blue eyes and gimmicks.
" if the wrestlers who are the most popular and de facto are the biggest draw aren't champs...then who cares who the "champs" are, lol."
Exactly Ruslan. That's just what we've been telling you for years.
Let's be specific, Ruslan, in terms of what you assert:
"belted people are belted because they were friends, had ties and connections with the promoters, bosses who owned the game"
Dale Martin was the biggest promoter in the land but did not (could not?) claim one single national belt. For sure, Dale Martin was not happy about this. But they could do nothing about it. Later, certainly, McManus would be inserted even to defeat Dempsey at times. But at the time we are discussing, Dale Martin couldn't force McManus though as champion because Dempsey might have embarrassed him.
Same thing at other weights with the likes of Logan, Marino, and possibly even George Kidd. Looks like Billy Riley, at that time, coveted the British championships...and let the others get on with Mickey Mouse European, World and regional titles.
I put here the Jack Sherry video...to be honest I DID NOT SEE MUCH OF WRESTLING on this video...actually I did not see it at all. You can talk about how he was legit and tough and etc whole day every day...but to watch this I would not pay a broken dime, lol. very poor quality 2 drunks brawl.
Ruslan said
"And the whole "legitimacy" myth has nothing to do with it. "
It was certainly no myth Ruslan. It had everything to do with it. It was essential. Pro wrestling was all about colour, excitement, entertainment. The men who drew the crowds were the Jackie Pallo's, Ghouls, Wildman of Borneo, Les Kellett, Mick McManus. But wrestling couldn't survive on gimmicks alone. There had to be credibility that this was for real. The likes of Dr Death, the Wildman of Borneo, Ricky Starr and Quasimodo couldn't bring that credibility, and even big names like McManus and Pallo were acknowledged as having limited technical ability. The champions in the photo couldn't pull the punters alone, but they brought credibility to wrestling in general and the colourful personas also.
In the 1980s that credibility wasn't considered necessary, and the result was that the crowds dwindled.
Looks like Jack Sherry @ Manchester.
Hi Ruslan
I can't quite follow you here:
"their "belts" were based on the "connections" they had with the "bosses" owners of the game not on their actual ability to draw the crowds and pack arenas, and that is what the profession of pro wrestling is and always was about, it is about selling tickets it was like that in the 1860s and it was the same in the 1960s. "
Not their ability to draw crowds, but the business is about selling tickets ....? Sounds contradictory.
I think you may be analysing things from an angle where a sole promoter was in charge, as in some regions of North America. At the time of that fifties photo, there were about seven promoters who agreed on the Joint Promotions champions. There would have been no way they would have agreed on such a dour, unflashy group of wrestlers as champions, practically clones of each other. And almost all from a tiny geographical area. No way that can have been a commercial decision. In this context, the element of true "shooting" ability, or whatever Snakepit rules may be defined as, seems clearly to have been the very non-commercial basis for determining the British champions.
Morrell and Relwyskow ensured their true amateur prowess and heritage mattered in the professional setting. A few years later they realised this wasn't the best across-the-board approach.
I'm a little too young to recall the Pye/Benny era but as a fan in the seventies I would have thought Starr, Two Rivers, Mc.Manus, Pallo and Kellett. As a promoter, definitely Kellett for me.
On the original question from Ruslan, it has to be Jack Pye.
Cheers
thanks so much to everyone...and wow. jack pye would totally make sense! such a long career! 3 decades of pro wrestling!
Though I am surprised that no one from these photos was not even mentioned by anyone...?!
What about Belle Vue and Greater Manchester? Who was the biggest box office, biggest draw and the Mancunian fans ultimate favorite?
1950s I would agree with Jack Pye, for longevity and worked a large geographical area, cutting back to the north only in his last few years. The Ghoul was another big name.
In the 1960s I'd say McManus. But it's not a straightforward question. McManus in areas where he was rarely seen would definitely draw them in as the most well known wrestler who was on tv most often, but in those southern halls where he was a regular feature he must have lost his shine. Big names in the sixties - McManus, Pallo, Kellett.
In the late 70s and 80s it would be Shirley Crabtree/Big Daddy, say it quietly.
You're right, Powerlock. The fun of these threads is that the titles are worded loosely and we can all have our say from various points of view.
Ricki Starr. He topped bills that included Pallo, McManus, Robinson, The Outlaw and Kellett when all were in their prime.
Kendo Nagasaki developed a bit of a cult following for a few years.
North West and National is the same thing; the business was well organised. McManus probably a huge draw when he did appear in NW.
I would think it must be Jack Pye
For longevity it would probably be Mick McManus and Big Daddy also as Shirley Crabtree, but you cant disregard Jack Pye. We could probably go into at double figures and they would all have a valid reason to be there. Do you mean takings or punters by box office Ruslan?, I am working off punters.
North West I couldn't help with.
Hi RUSLAN!
Biggest Draw in The U.K.- DOCTOR DEATH!-
Regularly Filled 6000 Seater GRANADA LEISURE CENTRES Like TOOTING!
Biggest Draw in NORTH WEST U.K.- COUNT BARTELLI!-
Regularly Filled Big Venue Halls For 20 Years!!
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