Billy Howes

Hello Caroline,

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Hey all - i’ve absolutely loved reading all these memories and seeing the posyers / programmes. Billy Howes was my grandad. If anyone has any publications featuring my dad / scans of any posters i’d dearly love to see them and share with my mum - Bills eldest daughter xx

Your right Graham the comeback although delayed didn't last long Kent announced Bills absence as diabetes.

I recall seeing the lighter Howes on a TV taping as the blue eye against Alan Woods. But that's all I remember. Howes' comeback as a welterweight didn't seem to last long.

Wow, 3 stones lighter is one heck of a weight drop!

Looks like non of us know anything Paul and I assume the gap we are talking about is after 1975 and it seems he came back even after 1980 if everything we have collected is correct.

I was not really following it after about 1978 so I am blank.

I think you are probably going to have to tell us Paul.

Would love to know as well as Billy really was one of my best picks.

Great to see the view from the seats,impressed as usual into all your insights.However I'm amazed the disappearance and comeback went un noticed.Kent Walton gave an explanation on Bills return and in some detail,I wonder who told him.Wearing a bonnet was discussed and appeared to be a goer however this was abandoned when Bill resurfaced three stone lighter.

Hi Anglo

"...I can't agree with you that Howes happened to be the guy on the bill that day of the unmasking..."

I wasn't saying it as fact (of course not), just putting it forward as an idea. I agree though, that a number of wrestlers (Hussey, Nagasaki, etc.) seem to have been a lot closer than would appear on first glance.

All good stuff, as always.

Hi Saxonwolf, Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to identify about being different about the Outlaw. A DM trusty for ten years before getting his big masked push. He could be trusted. But JPs didn't want to trust anyone else. Even this trusty scarpered once his image had been established. 25-y-o Nagasaki must have seemed very much like trouble. He turned out not to be (much☺) but I bet he seemed it.

I can't agree with you that Howes happened to be the guy on the bill that day of the unmasking. The unmasking was a huge deal, at least it seemed so to me. I guess what we are discussing here is how Howes came to be (chosen as) the one to unmask Nagasaki.

I do like Ron's development that Wryton didn't have too many heavyweights at the time. I guess we just don't know what role the promoter had in all this. I remain convinced that Nagasaki would have decided 100% his own destiny. Howes would have acted 100% exactly as Nagasaki would have wanted.

As the article further underlines, the whole Hussey, Bartelli, Howes, Nagasaki circle was far more convivial than we have ever unearthed, and certainly far more intimate than the book describes.

Main Mask, you seem convinced of your theory that a "conspiracy of promoters" kept Nagasaki off tv. You are entitled to believe your theory. But in mixing in the hype about Nagasaki's eligibility for various titles, and his sword-swishing, it is my opinion that the true answer to the question is overlooked.

As I wrote before, what was going on was going on at THAT time.

To what extend was it Ct Bartelli's decision to appear on tv mask-in-hand? To what extent the promoters'? Or the tv company's?

So much that we just don't know (most of us don't know).

Some interesting opinions here.

Bartelli not being on TV by choice, and advising Kendo to do the same?, maybe.

Anglo, when you say "...JP were not prepared to invest in tv exposure for an anonymous wrestler who could then easily be copied by the independents...."

Wouldn't that have applied to The Outlaw? I seem to remember seeing him on TV, when I would have only been four or five years old?

As for why Howes was picked, was it as simple as he was just the bloke who was scheduled to meet Kendo on that date, and that date was chosen to be televised?

Some good theories and also going back to the question of why Howes for the TV mask off.

Well , it probably had to be a Wryton man and Wryton had certainly matched them together multiple times and knew it was a decent work. Did Wryton actually have that many heavyweights on the books.

But also what about Howes's peak. I don't know when he got it , but he was European Mid Heavyweight champ and they made a big series of this. I seem to remember turning up at Belle Vue for a title match only for it to be announced that there had been no evidence of Kendo being European. Or at least his asking for a match had been turned down for that reason.

Was this actually Billy Howes's pinnacle.

And to be fair , as far as I was concerned Billy was sensational at that time.

Hi Saxonwolf

"I have a question for Anglo; you keep saying "something was going on", regards the lack of TV for Bartelli and the young Nagasaki. You also mention Hans Streiger and Alan Garfield. Just curious."

I think it is dangerous to believe too much in coincidences. Especially in wrestling!

The facts are that the pair didn't appear on tv for eleven and seven years respectively, even though constantly working for JPs. For one not to appear was very strange, for neither to appear was surely not carelessness.

There must have been a reason for each.

Quite possibly the same reason applies to both.

All other long-term JP wrestlers appeared on tv, most with regularity.

So Ct Bartelli and Nagasaki were excluded, or excluded themselves.

Now for the opionions.

Main Mask is enthusiastically convinced it was down to Nagasaki's ferocious tactics. This wouldn't account for Bartelli. And if we exclude coincidences, which I strongly want to do, we have to find another reason.

We can do our heads in going around in rings wondering what kind of block there was on masked wrestlers on tv. It's riddled with contradictions.

Personally, based on logic and facts, I prefer to believe that Bartelli excluded himself, and influenced Nagasaki with the same policy. They would not have been penalized by exclusion. Nagasaki could easily have watered down his show for tv.

Regarding the tv policy, JP were not prepared to invest in tv exposure for an anonymous wrestler who could then easily be copied by the independants. Even Nagasaki's elaborate garb was subsequently copied by King Kendo, admittedly with what David Mantell memorably described as a butter-knife.

So I extend my own belief of self-exclusion, and therefore ask the question Why?

It could have had something to do with Ct Bartelli's conviction that masked men should stay off tv. A pure wrestling policy. This is enhanced by the fact that Bartelli was on tv as quick as a flash after his unmasking. But against this stand many other points: the fame; the fun; the added pulling power in halls; the extra money of tv bouts (and we know Geoff liked the pennies).

To self-exclude from tv, they must have had reasons, a reason.

They assured near anonymity thanks to their bonnets. I imagine they genuinely wanted anonymity in their private lives. At THAT time. Even sacrificing the benefits tv exposure brought.

I hope this elaborates, Saxonwolf.

Then Paul talks about a a scuffle with a native American.

I have a proposal here with Howes back with Joint. I certainly have Billy wrestling into April 1976.

As for tagging with Streiger I have him right at the end here in 1973

And another attempt at showing him with Dixon (and Naggers) I have him actually against Streiger at the Houldsworth. Wonder if Graham Brook was there.

Note..... Streiger seems to have jumped ship with Kendo.

Or a show at Connah's Quay

Excellent research and comments,loads more to come.korea the Isle of Man,training Juan Thomas,tagging with Streiger, Mike Marino,the dressing room scuffle with the native American,the return as a heavy middle weight.

MM , I have at least 8 bills after April 73 for Howes , the latest being right at the end.

Of course he than ends up doing some work with Brian Dixon in 1974 , and of course Dixon's promotional partner is Kendo. Here is one of several Billy outings , but it does leave a gap. Maybe it was Kendo who enticed Billy to jump ship.

Albert Wall of course also spent his last year with Dixon (and Kendo)

it has been mentioned there is a link for the Howes/Nagasaki. any chance of somebody posting it.

Two more pre the TV Match. making three at Liverpool before 1972

I have an earlier meeting

Interesting debate here, and I have a question for Anglo; you keep saying "something was going on", regards the lack of TV for Bartelli and the young Nagasaki. You also mention Hans Streiger and Alan Garfield.

I think the Garfield issue you allude to is that he upset Kent Walton. Are you saying that Walton had some interest and influence in the other three?

Just curious.

I love the politics and back stories behind our beloved "sport", but I think if we stand back and take a deep breath, it does all boil down to a phrase that Anglo mentions, "follow the money......."

And we must remember it is a "Billy Howes Thread" and we are no clearer about him going missing. Do tell Bkendo1

Thanks for that, It would put a different shine on this.

But in this thread alone there are bills shown from Northwich, Nantwich, Nantwich, Southport and Hull featuring Howes v Nagasaki. And this is just a tiny thread with a handful of contributors.

If these five bills have been rustled up so quickly, plus your Belle Vue bout, Main Mask, I was just assuming there must be many more bouts we haven't listed. Seems fair.

PS I don't think the feud (contract ☺) would ever have been nationwide, Howes wasn't much of a traveller in the seventies.

Yes, it does remain the big WHY, doesn't it?

I just can't think that it could have been anything to do with in-ring performance. Lots of aspects of live wrestling were watered down for tv: absolutely no wrestling outside the ring; very limited use of claret; greatly reduced backchat; no ten-minute rounds.

Gordon Nelson had been a reliable worker for ten years and could be entrusted with his role. DM knew they would have him for five or six nights a week. And they of course shared him with other JP members. I hear what you say Ron, about a mask being too sinister - worn by burglars and muggers. Yet for a flurry of activity through 1966 a mask became acceptable on tv.

Zebra Kid was filmed for tv against John Lees, but seems never to have been transmitted.

No logic, is there.

The Outlaw and Dr Death were easy to copy; Zebra Kid and Nagasaki far more difficult.

The reason, it seems to me, must lie somewhere within Bartelli never wrestling masked on tv in eleven years and Nagasaki in seven. Something was going on there beyond coincidence. And Nagasaki and Bartelli were probably much more closely associated than described in the book.

And there may have been an element of "Never again" after the Outlaw disappeared in 1967, though he appears to have behaved correctly.

Probably Main Mask's opinion that Naggers was simply too wild is the most convenient and pleasant now to become history.

I think as far as TV vetting was concerned , it might have been o.k. to look tough , even downright nasty , but when it came to a mask , I think it was deemed too sinister.

However that does not explain the two other masked men who did do tv before Nagasaki. Unless of course it took those two to wake up the authorities to banning masked men at 4.00 in the afternoon.

Just an opinion though. One of them that we may never solve.

Yeah .. but ....all seven and sixers!

You can't compare Ct Bartelli's bill-topping in the south pre-1966 with Nagasaki's 1966 to 1971.

Bartelli hardly wrestled at all in the south then. Nagasaki lived in London and wrestled all the DM venues with regularity - seldom topping the bill.

About the lack of tv coverage: Bartelli never wrestled masked on tv in eleven years of televised wrestling but suddenly appeared soon after being unmasked. Something was going on there.

Nagasaki didn't wrestle on tv for seven years - then suddenly became a regular. Something was going on there.

We know Hans Streiger wasn't a regular tv wrestler and we think we know why know why Alan Garfield was banned from tv in 1965.

We don't actually know why Bartelli and then Nagasaki after him didn't appear on tv. Many reasons are possible. One is that they deliberately chose not to. This would make sense in that Nagasaki would have been influenced by his mentor's earlier logic and career path.

But we don't know.

A Bit more sampling

I said that Nagasaki had been bottom of the bill. That doesn't mean the opening bout. The bottom of the bill is the main supporting bout.

Certainly he appeared top of the bill when in with the likes of Wall and Robinson and Davies - they were champions.

Looks like he was top of the bill in M'cr more regularly.

But those Nantwich and Southport bills on this thread remain representative of where he was at a national level. I was watching him in the late sixties and he would be on bills under Kellett and McManus. I do not believe he was topping bills for Dale Martin at that time. Or maybe only occasionally in the way Marino or Masambula were. BTW, you didn't own Nagasaki in Manchester. He says in his boook that he had a London home (I'll believe that bit) and he was popular with many many of us southern fans. Didn't he only debut on tv on a Dale Martin bill ☺.

(I'm not saying DM were right; they were spectacularly slow to notice the pulling power also of the Hells Angels and The Borg Brothers at the same time, prioritizing Goldbelt Maxine. But I am saying that those wrestlers with great gimmicks were itching for status and ££££)

I recall clearly that, after Catterick, Nagasaki became a top of the bill name for Dale Martin and elsewhere in the UK on a regular basis. He got his reward.

Main Mask, you have introduced your thoughts as to why Nagasaki wasn't on tv in the sixties (too aggressive.) I'm sure you would like this to be the truth. But we have absolutely no idea that this was the reason. There are many many other possible reasons. Be careful not to force through one theory because it suits.

Was Ct Bartelli too aggressive over 17 years for tv exposure?

We do agree on our question: why Howes? Wall was champ and needed to wrestle a wider pool of wrestlers.

It was probably just a business and availability thing. Howes probably needed the dosh to clothe his trendy teenage daughters at that time; he took on the intensive six-month contract, six nights a week. Am I not right in saying that from 1972 he became decidedly part-time?

The one detail that doesn't fit in for me is when Paul says Howes and Naggers were not great buddies. I can't get my head round that. My version of events needs the opposite to be true.

We need to be very focused and non-emotional to understand why Nagasaki didn't wrestle on tv for 78 months and why Howes did the 1971 honours. We need to be analytical and investigative.

Naggers was topping bills without the aid of TV.

Four Belle Vue bills in 1968 show this.

"So to agree to an Exposure a mere FEW Weeks into his 'Televised' Career?"

Precisely.

Nagasaki moved himself up from the bottoms of bills where he had remained, more or less, until Cup Final Day 1971. He had a plan for the rest of the year:

• TV exposure to gain interest

• TV sensation at Catterick

• Six-months bill topping with Howes around the land.

I am not saying I AM RIGHT because I do not have the facts. But we do know that Nagasaki was a methodical planner, and it would have made sense with his lovingly established gimmick.

But I do prefer to go along with this theory than that Howes did the dirty on him and Nagasaki was not supposed to be unmasked. And it was a shoot, and real, and a double-cross ....

In the cases of Arion and Preston, the perpetrators of double-crosses, to some extent, disappeared.

Howes and Nagasaki were positively rewarded for their tv sensation.

What I still don't understand is: why Howes? Ct. Bartelli, Wall, Davies ... so many others would have been more logical.

When we don't understand, the rule is: trace the money.

As Graham says, even the elbow was a show. Nagasaki was great at this and gave value long after the final bell.

Main Mask: after the Preston McManus bout, Preston was banished from Dale Martin rings and never fought McManus again. The end of the bout was even hushed up in Dale Martin land. That is evidence. I won't mention even what Peter Preston told us in his front parlour as these old pros just can't resist embellishing the story for years after, even in old age.

Howes and Nagasaki had been pre-programmed for a six-month tour after the Catterick bout, often doing the judo jackets thing. I am quite sure that every single bout looked real and full of needle - they were artists at this.

Other evidence, even from the above posters, Nantwich, Southport, is that, even in the 1971 months before Catterick, Nagasaki was still bogged down in support bouts.

The package he and Howes sold to the promoters was: I'll get unmasked but then we do the rounds as top of the bill everywhere for six months - with the extra lolly that brings.

They did the rounds, it was theatre. Great theatre. But theatre.

I would go further. The whole package was probably planned even before Nagasaki's Cup Final debut. Nagasaki may have committed to tv's first ever unmasking even before his tv debut. In fact, he created such a stir in the weeks between Wayne Bridges and Catterick, that he probably didn't need to unmask to go top of the bill, with hindsight.

I am also wondering about Howes going missing , but when and for how long and why.

Paul has thrown us a sprat here but I think only someone inside the game will know.

My own opinion on the Howes Naggers tv match.......A complete work ....all agreed.

On Saturdays I used to watch the ITV wrestling then catch a train to Levenshulme, a bus to Belle Vue, look round at the various animals then wait backstage of the Kings Hall for the wrestlers to arrive. There was a little regular group of about a dozen of us. Many wrestlers, even the villains (in fact, particularly the villains) would stop to chat, sign autographs and engage in banter.On one occasion Gillette was engaging in the banter whilst Kendo was quietly signing autographs. Suddenly his opponent for the night, Billy Howes, arrived at the stage door and, as he passed Nagasaki and Gillette, delivered a back elbow which caught Kendo unawares and sent him staggering. It was all very exciting at the time. In all the years of standing at the stage door, we hand never seen anything like this before.

This was in my days as a fan and my subsequent journey from punter to promoter persuaded me upon reflection that this had all been a bit of a show for the dozen or so of us and was their strange way of saying thank you.

I really don't think we should be looking for important factual detail in the book. We have to establish facts, starting with deductions based on evidence.

If the unmasking were as you say, Main Mask, this would have ranked alongside McManus & Preston as the greatest double-cross.

Nagasaki's gimmick was precious and only he would decide who would unmask him and when.

I'm glad you enjoyed the bout so much,as I did,Main Mask. But it was all a work.

Yes , it was very rare for the Manchester Evening News to advertise Hanley especially in 1966 and yet for the unmasking of Bartelli they stuck the advert in the paper absolutely knowing the plan.

Wrestling is a deception on the greatest scale.

So why did Nagasaki choose Howes to be the honoured one to remove his mask for the first time? That was a very big deal.

Thanks for this Paul:

"Anglo assumed a good relationship [Howes] with Kendo due to regular meetings not really so."

This does come as a surprise, in view of the routine they clearly perfomed hundreds of times.

Can you elaborate?

Some awesome posters here. I'm in the middle of taking photos of mine, but I have a poster (or programme) from December 1968 with Kendo vs Billy Howes on it. They go a way back.

Anglo and MM, you are talking about bad spelling mistakes, but I wonder. The promoters were not daft, do you think that they did this deliberately?

It certainly draws the eye to the posters, doesn't it?

I once went into a camera shop where I knew the owner. In front of me was a bin of reduced price goods, with a large notice saying "Big dicounts".

I pointed this spelling error out to the owner and he said "Yes, but you read the notice didn't you." "I sell more old stock that way "

Just a couple of points from everyone's contributions. No observations on Bills comeback and change ofappearance.pallo took on heavyweights on a regular basis including Geoff Portz honey boy plus Howes Robin Marino at mids.Anglo assumed a good relationship with Kendo due to regular meetings not really so.Bills wild look was it good acting no not really many a young lad who fancied either of Bills two daughters will testify he could be fearsome.Bills special constabulary duties certainly had no bearing on his no shows.Lasty Bobo misspelling Bailey brothers on the whole were pretty good and here quiet rightly put him down as halting from that Tongan capital Bolton.

Never mind Obo, Ron, what about Billy HOWIES and Bill HOWLES! Literally howlers ☺

Glad you mention spelling, Main Mask. In a way it seems trivial to nit pick now. But there's no denying it was absolutely AWFUL. On the whole.

That Hove bill is especially interesting. Continental Promotions drawing Billy Howes south. Pallo who was surely 100% Dale Martin pre-decimalisation. And a good smattering of Lincoln wrestlers. What was going on there?

Here are a couple in 1971....You got to laugh Obo Matu

Another stonker, great stuff dear Main Mask.

(Should I know Steve Adams?)

Hack survived as he kept one hand firmly on his wallet.

Respect rises this week for Geo Del Rel - seems to be a real picker and chooser.

At this point, Howes & Nagasaki could challenge St John and Swisjtak as the most fought bout. No wonder they served up great bouts after all that practice.

Must have been great breat buddies, but Nagasaki kept that back in his boook.

Learning all the time.

Incredible 1971 bill there, Main Mask. Royal and Street billed very mutedly.

They must have wrestled Nagasaki v Howes five nights a week that summer on the back of Catterick.

1950 is a gem, too and I remain astonished to see 10/6 way back then. Unchanged over decades. 10/6 started out dear and became cheap. They finally added a long overdue 20% after decimalisation as we can see at Southport.

Billy pretty much started out with Bert Royal and they fought all over the country circa 1950. Must have put a few stones on over 20 years.

A great wrestler. I'm pretty sure we all must have enjoyed him. BKendo is so right about not knowing which Billy Howes we would see. I know the one that I wanted to see. The moment his eyes became fiery and we knew that things were about to get explosive.

I witnessed many great matches between Nagasaki and Howes including Wryton Stadium for Martin Conroy (Wryton Promotions), Nottingham Ice Rink for Morrell and Beresford and Birkenhead Sports Centre for Brian Dixon. His match against Hans Streiger at Belle Vue was brilliant; they tore the place apart then returned a while later as a tag team to decimate Roy and Tony St.Clair. Dixon was very blase

about the wrestlers who worked for him but I do recall him being genuinely excited about securing the services of Howes to work with Nagasaki in his home town of Birkenhead. He was a "no show" on several occasions and I recall Ginsberg telling me that he helped out the local police force as a special constable and often prioritised his duties in this capacity above his wrestling commitments.

Coincidentally, halfway through typing this, the above piece appeared on the page focussing on Howes' backyard venue, Wryton Stadium. I believe he lived in Little Lever.

Hello BKendo1, need your help with Wryton Belt KO 1972-73.

By any chance do you remember who won it?

Great topic Paul , I never saw Billy in a bad match.

He only seemed to lose by his own reckless temper leading him into Danger. Had a great look on his face when mad.

I have found many bills recently with him and Kendo about the same era as the TV mask pull , which for me was one of the most exciting TV matches ever. It even got a lot of my non wrestling friends talking about it.

Did a really good judo jacket match with Kendo also.

I really regret that I never saw him work a match with , Streiger , Ginsberg , Les Thornton , Ray Thunder, Don Stedman , Tony Charles and people coming up like Jones , Rocco and good one would have been Tanaka.

Kendo tells his side of the story in his book.

Sounds like it was a pro relationship and maybe not great mates , but you might know better.

The disappearance is something I know nothing about , yet you have mentioned it.

Yes , saw Billy a lot.....but not enough.

He must have had a great relationship with Nagasaki to have been the first selected to remove the mask on tv at Catterick in 1971. That was a real big deal at the time.

Nagasaki was the third masked wrestler ever to appear on tv and the first to be seen to be unmasked. (Excepting Ct Bartelli's little show on his tv debut.)