Bristols/Little Levers Billy Howes was a superb wrestler but an enigma in so many ways,promoters even wondered which Billy would turn up.Any members have memories before his disappearance from the ring or on his return.
Hey all - i’ve absolutely loved reading all these memories and seeing the posyers / programmes. Billy Howes was my grandad. If anyone has any publications featuring my dad / scans of any posters i’d dearly love to see them and share with my mum - Bills eldest daughter xx
I recall seeing the lighter Howes on a TV taping as the blue eye against Alan Woods. But that's all I remember. Howes' comeback as a welterweight didn't seem to last long.
Looks like non of us know anything Paul and I assume the gap we are talking about is after 1975 and it seems he came back even after 1980 if everything we have collected is correct.
I was not really following it after about 1978 so I am blank.
I think you are probably going to have to tell us Paul.
Would love to know as well as Billy really was one of my best picks.
Great to see the view from the seats,impressed as usual into all your insights.However I'm amazed the disappearance and comeback went un noticed.Kent Walton gave an explanation on Bills return and in some detail,I wonder who told him.Wearing a bonnet was discussed and appeared to be a goer however this was abandoned when Bill resurfaced three stone lighter.
"...I can't agree with you that Howes happened to be the guy on the bill that day of the unmasking..."
I wasn't saying it as fact (of course not), just putting it forward as an idea. I agree though, that a number of wrestlers (Hussey, Nagasaki, etc.) seem to have been a lot closer than would appear on first glance.
Hi Saxonwolf, Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to identify about being different about the Outlaw. A DM trusty for ten years before getting his big masked push. He could be trusted. But JPs didn't want to trust anyone else. Even this trusty scarpered once his image had been established. 25-y-o Nagasaki must have seemed very much like trouble. He turned out not to be (much☺) but I bet he seemed it.
I can't agree with you that Howes happened to be the guy on the bill that day of the unmasking. The unmasking was a huge deal, at least it seemed so to me. I guess what we are discussing here is how Howes came to be (chosen as) the one to unmask Nagasaki.
I do like Ron's development that Wryton didn't have too many heavyweights at the time. I guess we just don't know what role the promoter had in all this. I remain convinced that Nagasaki would have decided 100% his own destiny. Howes would have acted 100% exactly as Nagasaki would have wanted.
As the article further underlines, the whole Hussey, Bartelli, Howes, Nagasaki circle was far more convivial than we have ever unearthed, and certainly far more intimate than the book describes.
Main Mask, you seem convinced of your theory that a "conspiracy of promoters" kept Nagasaki off tv. You are entitled to believe your theory. But in mixing in the hype about Nagasaki's eligibility for various titles, and his sword-swishing, it is my opinion that the true answer to the question is overlooked.
As I wrote before, what was going on was going on at THAT time.
To what extend was it Ct Bartelli's decision to appear on tv mask-in-hand? To what extent the promoters'? Or the tv company's?
So much that we just don't know (most of us don't know).
Bartelli not being on TV by choice, and advising Kendo to do the same?, maybe.
Anglo, when you say "...JP were not prepared to invest in tv exposure for an anonymous wrestler who could then easily be copied by the independents...."
Wouldn't that have applied to The Outlaw? I seem to remember seeing him on TV, when I would have only been four or five years old?
As for why Howes was picked, was it as simple as he was just the bloke who was scheduled to meet Kendo on that date, and that date was chosen to be televised?
Some good theories and also going back to the question of why Howes for the TV mask off.
Well , it probably had to be a Wryton man and Wryton had certainly matched them together multiple times and knew it was a decent work. Did Wryton actually have that many heavyweights on the books.
But also what about Howes's peak. I don't know when he got it , but he was European Mid Heavyweight champ and they made a big series of this. I seem to remember turning up at Belle Vue for a title match only for it to be announced that there had been no evidence of Kendo being European. Or at least his asking for a match had been turned down for that reason.
Was this actually Billy Howes's pinnacle.
And to be fair , as far as I was concerned Billy was sensational at that time.
"I have a question for Anglo; you keep saying "something was going on", regards the lack of TV for Bartelli and the young Nagasaki. You also mention Hans Streiger and Alan Garfield. Just curious."
I think it is dangerous to believe too much in coincidences. Especially in wrestling!
The facts are that the pair didn't appear on tv for eleven and seven years respectively, even though constantly working for JPs. For one not to appear was very strange, for neither to appear was surely not carelessness.
There must have been a reason for each.
Quite possibly the same reason applies to both.
All other long-term JP wrestlers appeared on tv, most with regularity.
So Ct Bartelli and Nagasaki were excluded, or excluded themselves.
Now for the opionions.
Main Mask is enthusiastically convinced it was down to Nagasaki's ferocious tactics. This wouldn't account for Bartelli. And if we exclude coincidences, which I strongly want to do, we have to find another reason.
We can do our heads in going around in rings wondering what kind of block there was on masked wrestlers on tv. It's riddled with contradictions.
Personally, based on logic and facts, I prefer to believe that Bartelli excluded himself, and influenced Nagasaki with the same policy. They would not have been penalized by exclusion. Nagasaki could easily have watered down his show for tv.
Regarding the tv policy, JP were not prepared to invest in tv exposure for an anonymous wrestler who could then easily be copied by the independants. Even Nagasaki's elaborate garb was subsequently copied by King Kendo, admittedly with what David Mantell memorably described as a butter-knife.
So I extend my own belief of self-exclusion, and therefore ask the question Why?
It could have had something to do with Ct Bartelli's conviction that masked men should stay off tv. A pure wrestling policy. This is enhanced by the fact that Bartelli was on tv as quick as a flash after his unmasking. But against this stand many other points: the fame; the fun; the added pulling power in halls; the extra money of tv bouts (and we know Geoff liked the pennies).
To self-exclude from tv, they must have had reasons, a reason.
They assured near anonymity thanks to their bonnets. I imagine they genuinely wanted anonymity in their private lives. At THAT time. Even sacrificing the benefits tv exposure brought.
No, I wasn't at that one. I was coming to the end of my studies at Leicester and, although I used to return home quite a few weekends, that was one I must have missed. Although the Houldsworth Hall had a variety of promoters, Cassidy/Carpentier were the mainstays and it could well have been a Cassidy show with three of his daughters in the tag match.
Excellent research and comments,loads more to come.korea the Isle of Man,training Juan Thomas,tagging with Streiger, Mike Marino,the dressing room scuffle with the native American,the return as a heavy middle weight.
MM , I have at least 8 bills after April 73 for Howes , the latest being right at the end.
Of course he than ends up doing some work with Brian Dixon in 1974 , and of course Dixon's promotional partner is Kendo. Here is one of several Billy outings , but it does leave a gap. Maybe it was Kendo who enticed Billy to jump ship.
Albert Wall of course also spent his last year with Dixon (and Kendo)
Hello Caroline,
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Hey all - i’ve absolutely loved reading all these memories and seeing the posyers / programmes. Billy Howes was my grandad. If anyone has any publications featuring my dad / scans of any posters i’d dearly love to see them and share with my mum - Bills eldest daughter xx
Your right Graham the comeback although delayed didn't last long Kent announced Bills absence as diabetes.
I recall seeing the lighter Howes on a TV taping as the blue eye against Alan Woods. But that's all I remember. Howes' comeback as a welterweight didn't seem to last long.
Wow, 3 stones lighter is one heck of a weight drop!
Looks like non of us know anything Paul and I assume the gap we are talking about is after 1975 and it seems he came back even after 1980 if everything we have collected is correct.
I was not really following it after about 1978 so I am blank.
I think you are probably going to have to tell us Paul.
Would love to know as well as Billy really was one of my best picks.
Great to see the view from the seats,impressed as usual into all your insights.However I'm amazed the disappearance and comeback went un noticed.Kent Walton gave an explanation on Bills return and in some detail,I wonder who told him.Wearing a bonnet was discussed and appeared to be a goer however this was abandoned when Bill resurfaced three stone lighter.
Hi Anglo
"...I can't agree with you that Howes happened to be the guy on the bill that day of the unmasking..."
I wasn't saying it as fact (of course not), just putting it forward as an idea. I agree though, that a number of wrestlers (Hussey, Nagasaki, etc.) seem to have been a lot closer than would appear on first glance.
All good stuff, as always.
Hi Saxonwolf, Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to identify about being different about the Outlaw. A DM trusty for ten years before getting his big masked push. He could be trusted. But JPs didn't want to trust anyone else. Even this trusty scarpered once his image had been established. 25-y-o Nagasaki must have seemed very much like trouble. He turned out not to be (much☺) but I bet he seemed it.
I can't agree with you that Howes happened to be the guy on the bill that day of the unmasking. The unmasking was a huge deal, at least it seemed so to me. I guess what we are discussing here is how Howes came to be (chosen as) the one to unmask Nagasaki.
I do like Ron's development that Wryton didn't have too many heavyweights at the time. I guess we just don't know what role the promoter had in all this. I remain convinced that Nagasaki would have decided 100% his own destiny. Howes would have acted 100% exactly as Nagasaki would have wanted.
As the article further underlines, the whole Hussey, Bartelli, Howes, Nagasaki circle was far more convivial than we have ever unearthed, and certainly far more intimate than the book describes.
Main Mask, you seem convinced of your theory that a "conspiracy of promoters" kept Nagasaki off tv. You are entitled to believe your theory. But in mixing in the hype about Nagasaki's eligibility for various titles, and his sword-swishing, it is my opinion that the true answer to the question is overlooked.
As I wrote before, what was going on was going on at THAT time.
To what extend was it Ct Bartelli's decision to appear on tv mask-in-hand? To what extent the promoters'? Or the tv company's?
So much that we just don't know (most of us don't know).
Some interesting opinions here.
Bartelli not being on TV by choice, and advising Kendo to do the same?, maybe.
Anglo, when you say "...JP were not prepared to invest in tv exposure for an anonymous wrestler who could then easily be copied by the independents...."
Wouldn't that have applied to The Outlaw? I seem to remember seeing him on TV, when I would have only been four or five years old?
As for why Howes was picked, was it as simple as he was just the bloke who was scheduled to meet Kendo on that date, and that date was chosen to be televised?
Some good theories and also going back to the question of why Howes for the TV mask off.
Well , it probably had to be a Wryton man and Wryton had certainly matched them together multiple times and knew it was a decent work. Did Wryton actually have that many heavyweights on the books.
But also what about Howes's peak. I don't know when he got it , but he was European Mid Heavyweight champ and they made a big series of this. I seem to remember turning up at Belle Vue for a title match only for it to be announced that there had been no evidence of Kendo being European. Or at least his asking for a match had been turned down for that reason.
Was this actually Billy Howes's pinnacle.
And to be fair , as far as I was concerned Billy was sensational at that time.
Hi Saxonwolf
"I have a question for Anglo; you keep saying "something was going on", regards the lack of TV for Bartelli and the young Nagasaki. You also mention Hans Streiger and Alan Garfield. Just curious."
I think it is dangerous to believe too much in coincidences. Especially in wrestling!
The facts are that the pair didn't appear on tv for eleven and seven years respectively, even though constantly working for JPs. For one not to appear was very strange, for neither to appear was surely not carelessness.
There must have been a reason for each.
Quite possibly the same reason applies to both.
All other long-term JP wrestlers appeared on tv, most with regularity.
So Ct Bartelli and Nagasaki were excluded, or excluded themselves.
Now for the opionions.
Main Mask is enthusiastically convinced it was down to Nagasaki's ferocious tactics. This wouldn't account for Bartelli. And if we exclude coincidences, which I strongly want to do, we have to find another reason.
We can do our heads in going around in rings wondering what kind of block there was on masked wrestlers on tv. It's riddled with contradictions.
Personally, based on logic and facts, I prefer to believe that Bartelli excluded himself, and influenced Nagasaki with the same policy. They would not have been penalized by exclusion. Nagasaki could easily have watered down his show for tv.
Regarding the tv policy, JP were not prepared to invest in tv exposure for an anonymous wrestler who could then easily be copied by the independants. Even Nagasaki's elaborate garb was subsequently copied by King Kendo, admittedly with what David Mantell memorably described as a butter-knife.
So I extend my own belief of self-exclusion, and therefore ask the question Why?
It could have had something to do with Ct Bartelli's conviction that masked men should stay off tv. A pure wrestling policy. This is enhanced by the fact that Bartelli was on tv as quick as a flash after his unmasking. But against this stand many other points: the fame; the fun; the added pulling power in halls; the extra money of tv bouts (and we know Geoff liked the pennies).
To self-exclude from tv, they must have had reasons, a reason.
They assured near anonymity thanks to their bonnets. I imagine they genuinely wanted anonymity in their private lives. At THAT time. Even sacrificing the benefits tv exposure brought.
I hope this elaborates, Saxonwolf.
Then Paul talks about a a scuffle with a native American.
I have a proposal here with Howes back with Joint. I certainly have Billy wrestling into April 1976.
As for tagging with Streiger I have him right at the end here in 1973
And another attempt at showing him with Dixon (and Naggers) I have him actually against Streiger at the Houldsworth. Wonder if Graham Brook was there.
Note..... Streiger seems to have jumped ship with Kendo.
Or a show at Connah's Quay
Excellent research and comments,loads more to come.korea the Isle of Man,training Juan Thomas,tagging with Streiger, Mike Marino,the dressing room scuffle with the native American,the return as a heavy middle weight.
MM , I have at least 8 bills after April 73 for Howes , the latest being right at the end.
Of course he than ends up doing some work with Brian Dixon in 1974 , and of course Dixon's promotional partner is Kendo. Here is one of several Billy outings , but it does leave a gap. Maybe it was Kendo who enticed Billy to jump ship.
Albert Wall of course also spent his last year with Dixon (and Kendo)
it has been mentioned there is a link for the Howes/Nagasaki. any chance of somebody posting it.
Two more pre the TV Match. making three at Liverpool before 1972
I have an earlier meeting