Billy, Nick, over a hundred years between them!

thank you, my friend, appreciate. I see a quote from my very book, thank you for referring to it here, that only made my day, but no there were no gyms of any kind (or what we nowadays consider as gyms), nor any gym traditions or anything even remotely similar to them back in the 1850s. gyms in our meaning of it simply didn't exist back then. but back to this very paragraph from my book you cited.

I will just have to repeat myself on that like I did previously. the first generations of Lancashire wrestlers were former Lancashire fighters. Publicans employed former fighters and turned them into pro wrestlers, saying that I do mean that they turned into wrestlers people who were not wrestlers and had very little knowledge on the actual art of wrestling. Yes, I stress it, the first generation of Lancs pro wrestlers didn't know anything on wrestling, and oftentimes were lazy to learn how to wrestle and etc. That fact was a huge disappointment and a drama for Adam Ridings of Bury, Lancs, the main hero of my book, and for people like him who wanted to become REAL wrestlers.

No, Lancashire fighting was NOT wrestling. It was an up and down prize fight in which fight continues until one of the two is no longer capable to continue the fight. It was just an all-in fight, it was decided either by knockout blow, or a knockout throw, or a full nelson hold, or by throttling your opponent. This is how far their "fighting" knowledge was spread back then. Most (let's just say all) such fights were predetermined finishes and were designed to fool crowds and suck the naive betters money.

So yes, this men the former fighters to survive (without necessity of going back to the coal pits) had to learn a new profession that of wrestlers. Lancashire wrestling and Lancashire fighting have nothing in common as I said many, I stress very many times before. Wrestling is Wrestling, and fighting is something else. but both were fixed result affair when it comes to how these so-called "professional sports" were run in South Lancs. Lol.

And you see to entertain crowds the former fighter throttles his opponent, wins the match, below I am sharing another example on the most "ancient Lancs submission hold", lol, the pulling of ears. Obviously in wrestling no one pulls opponent's ears but in Lanc fight application of this "vintage submission technique" also was ok. This entertaining detail is from the 1840s, enjoy this fact, my friend, lol:

"Smith grabbed Bailey by the ears and threw him to the ground several times.  Bailey kicked his opponent’s arm to make him release the ear grip.  After a third time of this Bailey quit the match."

all of that and even more fun details and info are present in my book.

and again, I have to repeat myself ALL submissions (what we nowadays call subs) that are currently used in pro wrestling are of exclusively Japanese origin. but back to the so-called modern catchers, who are now loud all around claiming historicity and legacy that does not belong to them, they all are charlatans. period. they all sell air. their certificates and diplomas and titles and their competitions, and their so-called catch wrestling do not represent anything other than being a small business that they are.

to entertain you, my friend, I am going to share here with you two references to the 19c pro Greco-Roman matches which also "were won on submissions", lol. by the way both the throttling and full-nelsons are holds above the waist, so Greco it is, lol now I am expecting you to tell me that French Greco-Roman wrestling was also an "ancient submission wrestling sport", just like "the catch wrestling was". Hahahah.

By the way one of my newspaper clips has a reference to the "Japanese rough-house style"...oh yes, Jiu Jitsu was already around (in the Western hemisphere) in the second half of the 19c.

long story short, I encourage everyone to stop fantasizing about wrestling history and to stop listening to the so-called catchers and their bosses who all are charlatans. that is what they all are! thank you.

fair enough, but, just saying, to bring clarity, the actual wrestling content of the old-school Lancashire fights had nothing in common with what we nowadays call submissions, lol. all currently used in pro wrestling subs are of a "far way Asian country" origin.

thank you for your comment, appreciate. of course both Olympic styles the Greco and Freestyle and their immediate ancestors French and Lancashire styles of wrestling included a wide variety of holds that could cause pain if applied by an expert, and oftentimes we see that in old newspaper reports how an old school Frenchman almost choked someone to death when tried to pin opponent's shoulders to the mat, or a Lanky almost broke someone's neck applying nelson and trying to roll his adversary so that his shoulder blades touched the ground. these are fat facts, as they say.

what I was trying to say was that what is nowadays internationally known as "submissions" aren't of Euro/British origins they all come from Japan to be more specific they originate in Judo and Jiu Jitsu which are not wrestling styles but historically were and still are self-defense martial arts. that was it. Wrestling instead whether we are talking about the Euro, British, or Oriental styles in not a martial art it is a game, a game of felling opponent to the ground in most cases and in some cases it is a game of controlling him on the ground, in a very few cases such as our beloved French and Lanky styles.

speaking of so called modern catch wrestlers. I am American, but I was born in a small one of fifteen former Soviet republics called Azerbaijan. and my native country is among the world's most famous producers of Olympic style champion caliber athletes. many times I have discussed with my former compatriots the so called catch, and they said that as a sport it makes zero sense, because any freestyler will pin any catcher in literally few seconds, because all so called catchers do not know how to pin they all are former Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners who spend most of their fights and their trainings on their backs and in wrestling it signifies defeat. so even the system of pin+sub is nonsense! it does not teach you anything.

I also addressed similar question to the MMA guys many of whom come from that the same region, I am talking the South and North Caucasus nearby Russia, and they told me the same...pin+sub system is not preparing you for a street fight or UFC event, they actually laughed at catchers.

and finally the carny-wrestlers myth. now this is what it really was and how it all happened, obviously open to all challenges meet all comers thing and etc weren't anything but a typical pro rasslin setup to suck naive betters moneys out of their pockets, and I wrote about that before actually in my FAQ on pro wrestling history article I believe it is there obviously in some others too and of course it is in my book as well.

Now, what we have is that so the called catchers who are obsessed with lineages because that is what they used to since they all come from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu backgrounds where they have lineages and it is a known fact there is no such thing as lineage in French-Greco or in Lanky-Freestyle lol, this is funny. So what those so called catchers do they hire some old pro wrestlers who for some extra buck are willing to say what they were paid to say. and that is where from all those multiple carny wrestler lineages or shooter pro wrestler lineages originate. whole this makes me laugh. it is not even a serious subject. no I don't usually write or talk about it. it is a comedy club material.

thank you, for your kind words, dear friend, I am glad to hear that you enjoy reading my articles. of course, I understand what you are saying. but I also want to stress that it has been over two decades (I think it started after 1995, that'd be my guess) that the false and inaccurate information about Lancashire catch wrestling, info which is deliberately intended to deceive masses was spread all around the world, and this continues up to this very day. this fact is very sad.

there is a great number of the so-called catch wrestling coaches, and catch wrestling experts around the world who claim historicity of what they teach at their gyms and sport clubs. but as a matter of fact what they offer is something that was made up less than a thirty years ago and has no historical connection to either the pro wrestling or to the catch wrestling. those so-called catch wrestlers are mostly the former Brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioners who separated from their "alma mater" with an intention of creating their own "sport", because they weren't successful in their actual sport, that of BJJ, that is exactly how the "pin+sub" so-called catch wrestling came into existence. all this is very sad!

the problem is not in them wanting to promote their sport, that is totally fine, the problem is that they are trying to re-write the history and present their twenty year old child as something that has hundreds years of legacy and history. on their websites they spread all kinds of misinformation about Lancashire wrestling, freestyle wrestling, pro wrestling, and that is done intentionally for the purpose of like I said re-writing the history. they are illegally capitalizing on pro wrestling's legacy and on catch wrestling history, because they believe that it will attract attention of masses to their sport.

thank you for your comment, but now I am really upset after reading this all, I am honest, a decade of me writing on this subject, and on this particular forum on Heritage and yet still we are back to where we started back in 2017, I think, wow. very sad. but I sure will repeat myself, I have no problems with doing that. now I know for a fact that no one reads my articles, no one ever read my book. and it is OK. no one has to read my work. nevermind then. But yes I of course will answer this again.

where ever from this paragraph comes...info it presents is a total anti-history and intentional lie. every single word in every single sentence of this paragraph is a lie, sorry it just is one huge intentional lie. I am talking about this paragraph:

"...Catch-as-catch-can was included in the 1904 Olympic Games and continued through the 1936 Games; it had new rules and weight categories introduced similar to other amateur wrestling styles, and dangerous moves - including all submission holds - were banned. New rules and regulations were later developed and codified by FILA and amateur catch wrestling became known as freestyle wrestling..."

No, Lancashire wrestling never had any kinds of submissions. All currently known and used in pro wrestling submissions are of Japanese descent and originated in Japanese self-defense styles the judo and jiu jitsu. Catch wrestling is a freestyle wrestling and has always been that. That is all there is. Originally (when it was first introduced in the 1820s) it was a touchfall sport, then it became a pinfall sport. That is the only difference between the old catch and new catch. To understand the difference between the touchfall and pinfall see the reference below.

Submissions were first introduced into British pro wrestling when it became all-in pro wrestling circa 1930. Because all-in pro was a mix of three different wrestling cultures: the British (catch), the French (Greco-Roman) both were wrestling for pinning falls, and the Japanese self-defense-submission styles. And that is why in all-in pro wrestling you win either on pinfalls (like in catch or Greco) or on subs (like in Japanese self-defense styles judo/jj). Prior to that there was professional Lancashire catch wrestling for the fair back falls ONLY, and there also was professional French wrestling in which you also win on pinfalls. For Europeans (Brits including) wrestling is not self-defense, it never was, it rather was a game a pastime in which the goal is to fell each other etc. But in Japan its the same, their actual wrestling is called Sumo which is also about felling opponent to the ground. Both judo and jj are self-defense styles submission styles they are NOT Japanese wrestling. Lol.

As for the Grovit hold. Sorry to upset you again, my friend, there is no such thing as "grovit", it is a French word "la cravate" or a necktie, a neckband. yes, it was a very common hold in French Greco-Roman wrestling and that is where from this terminolgy came, no it is not of North-Western origin, sorry. It is of course not to say that Lankies and Yorkies didn't grab men around their necks. Of course chancery holds as well as the nelson holds existed in both French and Lancashire wrestling cultures. Both could be used in self-defense. Should we consider them submissions? Lol.

and finally, pro wrestling is pro wrestling, it has never been anything but pro wrestling (I specifically say it here again a predetermined finish bouts designed to collect betters money, read to fool people around lol) in the very true meaning of it since it was first introduced in Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancs in the 1820s. None of that has anything in common with self-defense etc.

Wow, literally twenty years of studies and last ten years of writing, writing, writing on this subject and on this forum and we are back at it again. Time to stop for me. I am silent from now. That is about it. I said it all.

no doubts about that, but they were not pro wrestling in ours (British/Euro/American) true sense of it...it was NOT a wrestling showcase, it was an MMA showcase if you will.

Hello. And thank you very much for your comment, appreciate, to be honest I don't use such terminology as "a submission wrestler" or "not a submission wrestler" at all. I don't even have such words in my pro wrestling researcher's vocabulary. I think Billy Robinson was a pro wrestler with an amateur freestyle wrestling background. That would be probably the most accurate. Other than that...there is no much to say about him, Karel Istaz was the same, a pro wrestler with Olympic style background and Hodge the same too. They all were pro wrestlers with Olympic styles backgrounds, i.e. freestyle or/and Greco. Pretty much. None of them was a judoka or a jiu-jitsu expert, right? Submissions exist only in judo and jiu-jitsu sports reality. There is no submissions in Olympic styles, right? Hence, yes. None of those three had any "submissions sports" backgrounds. Period.

As for the myths the promoters sold around. Who cares. I personally do not. It is pure anti-history. But yes this whole thing about how "Karel and etc Europeans, Brits or Americans brought their submission skills to Japan" cmon, let's be serious, to believe it...is simply impossible.

Instead they all came to Japan and learned the Japanese style of pro wrestling from the local Japanese pro wrestlers in Japanese pro wrestling gyms which were owned by the Japanese pro wrestling companies. No rocket science.

Lou Thesz was involved with the organization as they wanted to promote a realistic, "shoot style" of wrestling, which would look convincing to the audience. He loaned them his original NWA belt, which they used for Championship matches.

Thesz also helped out occasionally in training wrestlers in real submission wrestling (Billy Robinson was head trainer, with Thesz and Danny Hodge helping from time to time). Channel 4 used to show the UWFi shows, under the name "Bushido", they were very clever, worked, matches, that looked very real because the wrestlers worked stiff, especially with kicks.

As most of the wrestlers had learned real submission (catch) wrestling from Billy Robinson, and had learned kick boxing and other martial arts, some of the wrestlers went on to compete in MMA.

between you and I, my friend, when they said that Karl Gotch, Billy Robinson, Danny Hodge and Thesz were teaching subs in Japan...they didn't not tell fans the truth. Neither of these three was a subs expert, lol, neither of them had such background, they were Olympic style wrestlers, they themselves learned all subs they knew from the Japanese pro wrestlers. It was a promotional trick the Japanese used back then, to grow interest of local fans to foreign performers. Some American, British or European wrestler would come to work to Japan, first he had to learn the Japanese style pro wrestling from Japanese. Then they finally let them enter the ring and advertise them as the masters of that style. Nothing but a promotional trick. You shouldn't believe that at all. Yes, and by the way there never ever were any submissions in catch as catch can wrestling, I sincerely encourage everyone to start finally reading what I have been writing for over a decade now, lol.

Catch as catch can as a pitmans submission wrestling style is an enduring myth and I have to put my hands up here and admit to having helped perpetuate it a bit myself in the past. What probably is true is that Lancashire wrestlers knew how to cause pain and force an opponent onto his back. Certainly that was what I was taught that the double wrist lock was for. But what I would like to ask is what you think of the "carni hooker" narative. Was that also just so much hokum?