Only conjecture but Billy Torontos may have appealed to Dale Martin as he was an American and subsequently billed as the Chicago Tornado. In the early 1960's several American wrestlers visited the UK, many but not all "heels" and drew good crowds, particularly if they had been seen on television.This was good news for wrestling promoters and they were authentic American. Torontos was different and perhaps his antics initially sustained some interest but after a while rather grated and became predictable and frankly boring. I agree how he lasted so long and for some time was often top of the bill, remains a mystery.
I really don't think he was. I think the scurfing with Nagasaki was more to put the egotistical Torontos in his place.
Ballymoss's fascinating recollection now confirms, for me at any rate, that Torontos had zilch to offer skill-wise.
What absolutely confounds me is why Dale Martin stuck with him for 17 years after he had plainly hoodwinked them through his untruthful self-promotion. I would have thought that once they saw him, or at least soon after, the programmes would have been festooned with banners like "Bill Torontos was not allowed UK entry for visa irregularities but we hope that he will be wrestling here in the future."
I was a regular at the Dominion Southall in the early to mid 1960's and remember witnessing the worst mismatch I ever saw when the top of the bill pitched Billy Torontos against the best heavyweight I had seen George Gordienko. This venue staged ten minute rounds and in the opener Billy did his familiar wild dervish act which did not go down well with the audience and with Gordienko who made little effort to catch him. In the second round this nonsense was terminated by George who knocked out Torontos and ended this ridiculous "contest".
I can understand Dale Martin not wanting to match Gordienko with Syed Saif Shah, the local favourite who was also on the bill, and I believe unbeaten in all his matches at Southall but Frank Hurley and Seamus Donlevy were also appearing and although well removed from the class of George Gordienko would have certainly proved better opponents than the hapless Billy Torontos.
Sharing this link between the Polish Eagle and Mighty Torontos. They knew what they were doing and every move choreographed by Wayne Sleep. It worked a treat.
I wonder what sort of Visa did he have? How was he able to stay as long as he did. And do we know anything about his private life and family?
I never saw Torontos live, not that I can remember, but I do recall the first time I saw him, which was early 70's on the midweek, late night TV slot. The midweek show was usually hard hitting, but the bout was as you would expect, with Torontos doing a load of comedy stuff.
I guess after we all learned about Les Kellett not being a lovely, funny man, but a hard-as-nails character, in real life, and Syd Cooper being the real deal, then we should have expected finding out that Torontos was a shooter!
27th August 1963 is also a concern. Had he been on view then, the promoter would have had ample time to rearrange those autumn mis-matches.
What does all this tell us:
- international wrestlers got top-of-the-bill status based on their own fraudulent claims about size and weight. Flimsy screening.
- Torontos lied about his size and weight.
- he participated in numerous mismatches at top-of-the-bill. The audiences must have been outraged. How kind were the opponents in building up the "formidable new heavyweight?" (Was Streiger the kind type?)
- it beggars belief that he was seemingly absolved of his porkies and embraced as a DM regular for the following 17 years.
Unless we are wrong. Maybe he was indeed a stocky Assirati type with "shooting" background; who for injury or some other reason abandoned serious wrestling for his comedy routine? I really don't think so, but just trying to be objective.
Oh to have a first-hand report of his bout with Streiger! Adrian Street was there; I bet he and the others watched the main event.
No Clarke wasn't noted for kindness in the ring.You wince at Syreiger well if you noted Anglo I said Jack Dale used Torontos for cooperative working from newcomers,I'm sure you'll wince even more when I tell you that a certain young man was seen as risky and went off script and could cause problems this newcomer was put in the gym with a pull with Billy the job Billy had to do was scurf him a bit and let him understand the pro game,however it didn't go as jack intended as Billy was left wincing see I love that word now,but jack was convinced about the newcomers credentials....the man in question was Nagasaki
Interesting and surprising as ever, Paul. But I cannot work out a time context when this would have happened.
I imagine Dale Martin had little or nothing to do with Nagasaki before 1967, but would of course have been aware of him. So it wouldn't have been then.
But then from 1967 onwards, nobody would have had to try out Nagasaki in the gym.
Please enlighten me.
And also from that box of tricks that is your memory, what can you share about the very special relationship between Tornado Torontos and Max Ward?
Dales were wary of Nagasaki purely because of his stiff working and his origins very much Wryton at a time when a combined northern move to promote in London was muted,this prior to rumours Dales courted a Wryton takeover.Billy was a total promoters man,he was very likeable but bloody hard work to wrestle against.Regarding flat shares this was the soho penthouse Syd boasted about,as it was wrestling it was far from penthouse.Special relationship well perhaps Max needed looking after,earlier his wife drove him everywhere and organised his life so it was said.Max was a character who needed respect and recognition.Billy used to say he didn't need work permits ,work that one out.Both Max and Billy believed in premanition and other border line hocus pocus. Billy weeks prior to his untimely death was stating categorically he'd be next to die. Billy was a great cook and never frequented the dale Martin greasy spoons owned by Dales.My bouts with Billy were never classics and his lack of northern exposure was promoters choice although Billy appeared few times at Derby.
He wasn't there in 1961. I think the erroneous result from Ray's files is Purvey bt Torontos at Belle Vue on December 8, 1962. Probably a mix up. There's a 1959 and 1961 in Ray's files which most likely points to 1964 and 1967.
Earliest billing I have is August 27, 1963 in Westbury. That may be a bit premature. I have a result from Shoreditch on September 30 losing to Hans Streiger and he is a regular from then on.
The fact he was billed as NEW on that 5th October bill tells me he hadn't wrestled in UK before the final quarter of 1963.
As with most visiting internationals, he was thrown in against a genuine wrestler to test his mettle. Later mismatches that autumn with John Da Silva and the likes; before he settled down into comedy closing bouts for the following 16 years.
This whole series of events tells us how the promotion worked and on what flimsy evidence visiting wrestlers were hired. The same scenario recurred 9 years later when Butts Giraud visited. Butts later told us in interview that he had virtually no experience when he arrived and learnt on the job. He at least had the size and weight to make it all work.
I can believe the Torontos-Czeslaw bout took place.
But I will be amazed if any 1961 bouts emerge as you say, Powerlock. But I hope you're right!
As I sat there moaning to all who would listen throughout seemingly countless Torontos bouts 50+ years ago, little did I think I would be discussing his career in great detail half a century later. And willingly!
Cagematch have him in 1963 wrestling Johnny Czezlaw in Cardiff at the end of October. I found a lot more matches on another site including earlier dates but am having trouble locating it I'll keep at it
Two earlier sightings I found seemed dodgy, and were. 26/2/1962 at Rochester against Kwango, and 8/12/1962 against Chic Purvey at Belle Vue. I have the posters for these and it was not Torontos but Brian Trevors.
Cagematch have him in 1963 wrestling Johnny Czezlaw in Cardiff at the end of October. I found a lot more matches on another site including earlier dates but am having trouble locating it I'll keep at it.
I only saw Billy Torontos on tv. The small screen did subdue any character or personality of a wrestler compared to seeing them live so I was surprised to start reading over the years the contrasting opinions of him. I remember the arm winding and running around in circles which seemed ridiculous but not over the top. For me he was entertaining but I could take him or leave him.
Regarding his start date I've found evidence of him here from 1963.
if you had seen one match you had seen them all , sorry but I didn't find him entertaining. He first appeared in the UK back in 1961 , surely he wasn't working that style back then.
I have to take issue with the question: performanceS. He only had one show. I saw it countless times and was totally sick of it. Less believable than Kellett or Masambula.
I suffered seeing decent wrestlers have to adapt to his performance because he didn't have the versatility to adapt to theirs.
Paul Mitchell writes affectionately about him - which astounds me.
His 1964 arrival from America remains intriguing but we will never know the real words that were said when he pitched up at Brixton Road.
Fair enough, Bill. Certainly his act was original and self-deprecating. But he never looked like he was in anything like a competitive contest.
Paul called him Puffing Billy which I took as affectionate. Wrestlers in general don't speak, much less write, badly of their co-workers, which is commendable. But if we are to go beyond the bland and describe/record things as they really were, we need to be honest, I believe he faced a very limited range of opponents.
I'm sure what I'm about to write will astound Anglo.Firstly the dales Billy was quite different to the Jack Atherton Billy and to some extent the Morells Billy.Incidentally if your seeking his first visit try Christian name George and differently spelling of Toronto's.Now the astounding bit Jack Dale had immense faith in Billy and not just for his culinary expertise.Billy was used to test the mettle of newcomers to Dales and by this not the skills of ex amateurs but established workers from the northern promoters. Billy could scurf and be heavy and the reaction was the measure of potential working. jack Dale liked professionals with a safe light touch. Anglo you really would be amazed by the names Billy tryed rough up test. I'm sure one you'd never believe.
Only conjecture but Billy Torontos may have appealed to Dale Martin as he was an American and subsequently billed as the Chicago Tornado. In the early 1960's several American wrestlers visited the UK, many but not all "heels" and drew good crowds, particularly if they had been seen on television.This was good news for wrestling promoters and they were authentic American. Torontos was different and perhaps his antics initially sustained some interest but after a while rather grated and became predictable and frankly boring. I agree how he lasted so long and for some time was often top of the bill, remains a mystery.
Hang on, Saxonwolf!
Are you saying Torontos was a shooter?
I really don't think he was. I think the scurfing with Nagasaki was more to put the egotistical Torontos in his place.
Ballymoss's fascinating recollection now confirms, for me at any rate, that Torontos had zilch to offer skill-wise.
What absolutely confounds me is why Dale Martin stuck with him for 17 years after he had plainly hoodwinked them through his untruthful self-promotion. I would have thought that once they saw him, or at least soon after, the programmes would have been festooned with banners like "Bill Torontos was not allowed UK entry for visa irregularities but we hope that he will be wrestling here in the future."
If you're watching on TV it was put the kettle on, at the halls we always referred to these matches as p**s break matches.
I was a regular at the Dominion Southall in the early to mid 1960's and remember witnessing the worst mismatch I ever saw when the top of the bill pitched Billy Torontos against the best heavyweight I had seen George Gordienko. This venue staged ten minute rounds and in the opener Billy did his familiar wild dervish act which did not go down well with the audience and with Gordienko who made little effort to catch him. In the second round this nonsense was terminated by George who knocked out Torontos and ended this ridiculous "contest".
I can understand Dale Martin not wanting to match Gordienko with Syed Saif Shah, the local favourite who was also on the bill, and I believe unbeaten in all his matches at Southall but Frank Hurley and Seamus Donlevy were also appearing and although well removed from the class of George Gordienko would have certainly proved better opponents than the hapless Billy Torontos.
Matey Dave has written
Sharing this link between the Polish Eagle and Mighty Torontos. They knew what they were doing and every move choreographed by Wayne Sleep. It worked a treat.
I wonder what sort of Visa did he have? How was he able to stay as long as he did. And do we know anything about his private life and family?
I never saw Torontos live, not that I can remember, but I do recall the first time I saw him, which was early 70's on the midweek, late night TV slot. The midweek show was usually hard hitting, but the bout was as you would expect, with Torontos doing a load of comedy stuff.
I guess after we all learned about Les Kellett not being a lovely, funny man, but a hard-as-nails character, in real life, and Syd Cooper being the real deal, then we should have expected finding out that Torontos was a shooter!
I am wincing at these bouts: Hans Streiger!
27th August 1963 is also a concern. Had he been on view then, the promoter would have had ample time to rearrange those autumn mis-matches.
What does all this tell us:
- international wrestlers got top-of-the-bill status based on their own fraudulent claims about size and weight. Flimsy screening.
- Torontos lied about his size and weight.
- he participated in numerous mismatches at top-of-the-bill. The audiences must have been outraged. How kind were the opponents in building up the "formidable new heavyweight?" (Was Streiger the kind type?)
- it beggars belief that he was seemingly absolved of his porkies and embraced as a DM regular for the following 17 years.
Unless we are wrong. Maybe he was indeed a stocky Assirati type with "shooting" background; who for injury or some other reason abandoned serious wrestling for his comedy routine? I really don't think so, but just trying to be objective.
Oh to have a first-hand report of his bout with Streiger! Adrian Street was there; I bet he and the others watched the main event.
Here's the Shoredtich handbill from my collection:
He wasn't there in 1961. I think the erroneous result from Ray's files is Purvey bt Torontos at Belle Vue on December 8, 1962. Probably a mix up. There's a 1959 and 1961 in Ray's files which most likely points to 1964 and 1967.
Earliest billing I have is August 27, 1963 in Westbury. That may be a bit premature. I have a result from Shoreditch on September 30 losing to Hans Streiger and he is a regular from then on.
wrestlingdata.com have him working in North America until May 1963 and then nothing more until 8th October and against Roy Bull Davis in Croydon.
The fact he was billed as NEW on that 5th October bill tells me he hadn't wrestled in UK before the final quarter of 1963.
As with most visiting internationals, he was thrown in against a genuine wrestler to test his mettle. Later mismatches that autumn with John Da Silva and the likes; before he settled down into comedy closing bouts for the following 16 years.
This whole series of events tells us how the promotion worked and on what flimsy evidence visiting wrestlers were hired. The same scenario recurred 9 years later when Butts Giraud visited. Butts later told us in interview that he had virtually no experience when he arrived and learnt on the job. He at least had the size and weight to make it all work.
I can believe the Torontos-Czeslaw bout took place.
But I will be amazed if any 1961 bouts emerge as you say, Powerlock. But I hope you're right!
As I sat there moaning to all who would listen throughout seemingly countless Torontos bouts 50+ years ago, little did I think I would be discussing his career in great detail half a century later. And willingly!
Powerlock
8h
Cagematch have him in 1963 wrestling Johnny Czezlaw in Cardiff at the end of October. I found a lot more matches on another site including earlier dates but am having trouble locating it I'll keep at it
Two earlier sightings I found seemed dodgy, and were. 26/2/1962 at Rochester against Kwango, and 8/12/1962 against Chic Purvey at Belle Vue. I have the posters for these and it was not Torontos but Brian Trevors.
Here's your October bill
Cagematch have him in 1963 wrestling Johnny Czezlaw in Cardiff at the end of October. I found a lot more matches on another site including earlier dates but am having trouble locating it I'll keep at it.
I only saw Billy Torontos on tv. The small screen did subdue any character or personality of a wrestler compared to seeing them live so I was surprised to start reading over the years the contrasting opinions of him. I remember the arm winding and running around in circles which seemed ridiculous but not over the top. For me he was entertaining but I could take him or leave him.
Regarding his start date I've found evidence of him here from 1963.
1961? That's news to me, great find. Please share the extent of his 1961 UK activity.
I loved Billy Torontos, Ensured the evening finished well. And I loved his act,which he varied big time.
if you had seen one match you had seen them all , sorry but I didn't find him entertaining. He first appeared in the UK back in 1961 , surely he wasn't working that style back then.
I have to take issue with the question: performanceS. He only had one show. I saw it countless times and was totally sick of it. Less believable than Kellett or Masambula.
I suffered seeing decent wrestlers have to adapt to his performance because he didn't have the versatility to adapt to theirs.
Paul Mitchell writes affectionately about him - which astounds me.
His 1964 arrival from America remains intriguing but we will never know the real words that were said when he pitched up at Brixton Road.
Like you Bill I found him likeable and I never found his bouts dull.