'Cordite Conroy' or 'Cordite Conroys' ???

The issue of two Conroys is not really in question. Here below is Martin stated to be brother of the famous Cordite in 1936. If Cordite was too old after the war to resume wrestling I can understand Martin taking the Cordite Name as a Gimmick. What I find difficult is that both men seem to use Cordite in the 1930's side by side. However this is only assumed because of bills using wording like "heavyweight" Indeed I don't think even Jack Pye was 13stones in the 1930's. A lot of heavyweight boxers were under 14 stones then.

As Martin was also James Martin he also wrestled as Jim. I expect below these two Conroys to be two different people in 1937.

The big question for me is "Did Jim/Martin ever wrestle as Cordite." Cordite Conroy wrestles as late as 1958. That would make the older brother age 54.

Martin did wrestle into the 60's often as a mentor at the Russel Club in Hulme.

The name Chopper started in the early 1950's. Martin is fairly evident in the 1930's as either Martin or Jim and sometimes both so maybe we are making it harder than it is. Picture wise I think they looked alike.

Below Cordite Conroy 1932

• christopher.snape 4h

• Appreciate that this post was over 2 years ago. My family, especially my grandmother talked about cordite convoy quite a bit. He was my grandmothers uncle. His sister was my grandmothers mum. I remember photos my grandmother had, he was a policeman. The conroy family lived in Pemberton, Wigan. From what my grandmother told me, Kay Burley the news presenter is also part of his legacy, part of the family in some way.
  

Wow. Welcome Christopher. Okay, I'm willing to overlook the Kay Burley connection if you can help us. Do you know if we are right in thinking there were two Conroys? I saw Martin as referee and MC, don't remember him as a wrestler.

If you can piece together this wrestling jig saw you will make old men very happy. If not, it's still good to have you with us.

There are not really many tools to find this guy and there are lots of John Conroys.

The only indicator is that in 1911 his father in Pemberton was a Driller underground in the Coal Mines.

He may well have followed in his path.

I can tell you that Jack Conroy sailed to cape Town from Southampton on the Carnarvon Castle 2nd July 1932.

Age 28 and occupation.......WRESTLER

Again we need Jack's occupation in the 20s then we can start guessing, without it...we won't ever find the truth.

This may be the earliest report...if he really started in 1931.

Apologies the quality is poor as I'm working from a photocopy. If anyone has a better quality please post and I'll remove this one. It would be useful if Eddie could tell us how confident he is that the Conroy making his debut in 1931 was Martin and not Jack. Though Eddie did have access to Martin in those days so you would have thought Martin himself was the source.

I can well believe Carroll . Joe of course being Jack Carrolls uncle would have been in his sixties at the dawn of All In Wrestling here in the early 1930's and even Joe was nearing fifty and still putting in an odd appearance.

Pop Saxon of course is Willie Charnock who also must have been coaching his own son Babe Saxon.

I would think it likely that the Carrolls would also have inspired Billy Riley.

Great Stuff

If anyone has a copy of the March 1964 issue of the Wrestler, it would great if they could share it here. There is an article on Martin Conroy. It states he was trained by Pop Saxon & Joe Carrol.

Earliest bills were autumn 1931 at London Sports Club. Some featured Oakeley and Bob Gregory, but the raw talent all in the same boat were Jack Pye , Norman Ansell , King Curtis , Cordite Conroy ,

This early London stranglehold of promoting ran satellites of the same thing at places like Notingham , Hull and Manchester to try and exploit the opportunity across the country.

The first thing they did wrong was having Doug Clark as Champ and then ditching him for Oakeley after his trip to USA when Oakely came back and said he himself was "all In " champ and Clark only "Catch"

That I think must have been the first split in any structure.

Jack Carroll and Peter Gotz were also providing expertise and indeed were involved in a match at Wigan with Billy Riley and Karl Reginsky that Job Shambley refereed.

It was late June 1931 when Curtis went to Cape Town from Southampton and Jack Conroy followed him less than 10 days later. Conroy and Curtis had already been a well worked bout.

Big question is , was the Sports Club a sort of headquarters and did urgent training go on there and recruitment plans.

I have another idea who might have influenced the elder Conroy.

In 1935 I can find Johh Conroy of Liverpool working with Ike Beech , St Helens. (twice in a month.)

Reading the write up on Ike Beech I had found him wrestling at Pemberton Rugby Club as far back as 1912.

Firstly Ruslan you mad e good point , could it be Charnock at Newtown for Charnock is very near Pemberton for Conroy.

However you would expect to find Conroys on early bills featuring Charnock if he mentored them.

I can't find Charnock with Conroys on any bills.

Looking at the birth in the UK essentially 1931 , there were not enough wrestlers and so came all the Boganski's ,Irslinger , Judson , Pojello etc and many home boys like Assirati and Reginsky , Anaconda , Lagran being given international personas.

But Oakely and Irslinger had to find more wrestlers fast. Jack Pye and his brother Harry were found , Oakeley found Giants and the like but still they needed more.

Billy Riley went to South Africa in 1932 , I assume to see what it was all about.

The following year King Curtis went and also Jack Conroy.

Where ever billed from Jack Conroy was a man from Wigan , must have been a promising man at that.

I propose that the South Africa Tour produced a step change in their ability so in itself was a training.

I would plump for Billy Riley having given Jack Conroy his push.

Jack was the same age as Jack Pye (Born 1904)

AS for Martin , well he just fitted into that scene with people like Vic Hessel , George Gregory , Riley and Atherton , Jack Alker , Joe Reid , Charlie Green , Bob Silcock.

They were Lancashire but not all Wigan.

A good gallery to look at is Nelson , mid 1930's , you will even find Londoner King Curtis there.

So it is just an opinion , but influenced by Billy Riley is my guess.

But who did Riley take his inspiration from.

Ron, what about the legends of catch like Peter Gotz, Jack Carroll and Peter Bannon? All three were still wrestling in the early 1930s. Yes, I agree Martin Conroy is the man to research. But I am not sure how and where? I am trying to put together the titles he held, but even that isn't bringing me much success so far. Mostly ads, cannot find match reports so far. May be those aren't on BNA yet...then it's dead-end.

I don't know but have been looking at it.

Hindley where the Carrols were from is not near Pemberton in relative terms and others seem to have come from a lot nearer the town centre of Wigan. Might need to double check , but Burgy Ben , Bob Berry don't seem to in the frame either.

Do we even know who Billy Riley learned from. I know in the 1930's Job Shambley was certainly an associate of Rileys as he acted as a ref in some of Riley's matches. But Job was not actually Wigan.

Was there actually a Snake Pit as far back as 1936 when Martin started. I think Billy Riley identified a lot of early talents for the Oakeley/Irslinger mission and they may have got extra training in London and tempory residence there. I could be wrong though as these guys also had jobs. Wrestling bills put their abodes as anywhere they fancied.

Riley was enough older than the Conroys to possibly have mentored them. Conroy though like Bartelli was Wryton through and through.

So really it's something I don't know and on this one my mind is very open. Martin came too late to have a background of fighting in the fields, that era was over.

It's a good thread , Martin Conroy is a worthy man.

Ron, any ideas Jack and Martin whose students they were, which gym, who was their wrestling coach? You think could have been William Charnock?

I waited at the back of kings Hall to see the wrestlers. Knowing what I know now I would have been trying to talk to Martin Conroy. Little did I know when wrestling in the UK had started , that Martin had seen it all and also come from Wigan.

He would have a great view of how it all really was. Should be a Hall of Fame Candidate when you look what he gave to the Industry. He was always MC in my day until Crabtree took over.

Thanks for your kind words Ron. Appreciate. Persona of Martin Cordite Conroy is of great interest to me. Very colorful individual.

Ruslan , you have provided a good thread that quite a few of us have enjoyed and I happen to believe your find of a Jack Conroy is an absolute Peach.

Keep enjoying yourself.

I have to say sounds brilliant and quite...unequivocal Ron, well said, nothing to add, but just to agree and thank for saying it, as always this feedback just like any other one was precious to me and is highly appreciated. Then, I consider my open to everyone studies of long forgotten or unknown titles and trophies and etc. over, and keep my researches and finds private, will continue my journey for my own education and first of all for my own entertainment, since it all was a kayfabe, as I mentioned before I always found joy and fun in doing it and sure still do. Though, I don't want to and not planning to retire from researches of challenge titles, trophies, and etc. even if it lacks any sense to anyone else. But I finally realized that none of that is of any interest or value, since the subject of my studies is way too funny, may be even silly and definitely has no importance. Thanks again for an eye-opening and insightful advise. It finally is accepted.

This welterweight title in 1953 is very murky. Just reading what papers we have available Jack Demsey won the GB Welterweight title from Tony Lawrence 26th March 1953.

19th September 1953 Jim Lewis beats Colbeck for it at Portsmouth. Dempsey jumps in ring and challenges Lewis afterwards.

29th September at Aberdeen Demsey wins by K.O.over Lewis but no mention of anyone being a champ.

But on 29th October Dempsey is title holder defending against Martin Conroy at Colne.

Despite that 21st November 1953 Jim Lewis is still champ as far as Portsmouth was concerned.

In December 1953 Dempsey works for Best at Liverpool and no mention of him being the champ at all.

In March 1954 Demsey is described as British and Empire Welter champ at Portsmouth.

Note ....Morrell had control at Portsmouth , Relwyskow at Aberdeen and in fact Billy Riley had creative control at Colne under backer T.Storr.

The belt at Portsmouth was the Jim Smith Silver belt.

My own conclusion is that it must have been the same in 1953 in wrestling as boxing and all it's belts are today. In addition though , the whole thing was Kayfaybe.

Is it worth trying to make sense of it. For most of us , lets just laugh ,the joke was on us.

There are no records and I don't think you could really make valid ones today.

Thanks bkendo1. Your memories and knowledge are invaluable and help us with the pieces of our jigsaw.

That's marvellous Paul because your recollections prove he had the brother in the game.

And what a great find from Ruslan because this had us fooled all this time.

Not unique either as there is a mystery to John and Jim Hussey also.

With regards the debate on the bodyweight as Paul points out 11-14 stones , so many wrestlers had flexibility beyond normal , caused by promoters constantly thinking of ideas for opponents.

Logan often fought lighter men such as Bert Royal , and Kellett was very flexible , even seen him billed with Mal Kirk.

People like Vic Faulkner , Alan Dennison and Adrian Street could also challenge at two or even three weights. We had to believe of course that somewhere there had been a weigh in.

If you look at my bill at the top of the thread at Nelson , it is 1936 and it is Martin.

He is billed as a Cruiser weight.

What was a Cruiser weight in 1936 , is this the earliest mention of the term.

Very interesting thread on an all round top bloke.Im able to add a little info but it might not be that helpful as Ron points out Eddie might also to shed some light.well here's my bit of info Martin said he had a brother John who had been in the game he also had a sister Catherine I think, he was born in Wigan in an area nr St John the Divine always remember that because not the run of the mill church name

Martin had wrestled at various weights and had weighed 11stone up to over 14. Finally and sadly the reason Ron you are unable to trace date of his passing, he was on holiday and died as a result of a swimming pool accident.

Cordite Conroy was a 12st wrestler in 1950.

Photo of retired Martin next to heavy man...G. Portz.

Martin Conroy although refereeing and heavily involved with Wryton certainly turned out at the Russell Club in Hulme at least three times in 1961.

I would not assume that he was welterweight and not even when he fought Dempsey. They just said it , There was no weigh in. He was quite a thick set guy with big bones and perhaps five nine in my judgement. Often billed as other weights right up to cruiser. Notice the bill I show on this thread is cruiser.

Through the 50's he had several title matches with Dempsey , no doubt they had a good product to show round the halls.

Seeing as Jack and Martin were brothers , I now wonder which Cordite this is. Martin is named.

If Martin won the Wryton Belt in 1947, then he was 33yo. He beat Dempsey in 1953/4 (I believe) then he was 40yo. Does anyone know when Martin quit?

Ron, thanks so much for sharing that great info, appreciate. I can't tell when Jack stopped wrestling. But he was light-heavy, 15st wrestler from the start. Martin was welterweight I don't know if he ever became middleweight. Yes, Martin was Wryton, both the matchmaker and the referee. Jack and Martin were Wiganers, were they colliers, I wonder? Does anyone know who was their wrestling mentor? Charnock?

Well spotted Ruslan and good research as always from Ron. It certainly looks like there were two Conroys. In the A to Z there is reference to Conroy teaching. I've now found this in the Old Thorntonians Newsletter in Clapham

Reminiscences

Wilf Finbow (1931-6) remembers a couple of bruising encounters in the gymnasium: I was a devotee of Bob Bramble. He had an annual check-up on his wounded leg and in his absence was a supply teacher, “Cordite” Conroy. He was one of that “circus” of all-in wrestlers in those days. No holds barred, they performed for the baying masses at the hall (much condemned by the Head Master) on the way to Clapham North Tube station. We presumed he took the name “Cordite” from the Navy’s 16in gun propellant, as he may have been an ex-matelot. Other opponents of this “circus” included Norman (“The Butcher”) Ansell and “Young Apollo” (said to be Sir Athole Oakley). My older siblings were friends of the “Butcher”, who in reality was a quiet, well-mannered car mechanic at his father-publican’s garage.

In gym one day I messed up a vault on the buck horse and gave “Cordite” a kick in the crutch. Spreadeagled on it, he gave me a really firm rabbit punch! Three years later he pitchforked me into the heavyweight boxing class versus F, a huge, powerful gymnast. He advised me not to worry as once you draw an opponent’s blood he folds. However, it turned out to be my blood; so, discreetly, I hit the canvas in the second round. Imagine such advice from teachers these days!

There was no parental complaining and “hot-footing” to the Head Master, Mr (Taffy) Evans. In fact, my parents never knew, and neither incident left indelible scars on my psyche, to quote the term used by “trick cyclists”.

Looking again at this I cannot argue , it does seem there were two brothers.

I was also wrong about Leigh , I was thinking of Pennington. The family lived at Pemberton , Wigan.

I have Jack born 1904 and being Cordite from 1931 and also going to South Africa in 1932 as one of the very first getting experience under Henry Irslinger.

Martin Conroy was born 1914 if my genealogical research is correct and crops up as Martin in 1936 which at age 22 seems bang on.

He is to be found both as Chopper or Cordite .

I believe he did live in Rusholme in the days when he was associated with Belle Vue , Wryton in general and the Russell Club in Hulme. I think he worked at Manchester Royal , might have been as a porter.

Paul Mitchell might know a little more, or Eddie Rose.

For whatever reason I cannot pin Martin Conroy's death.

I have to wonder if you are onto something here Ruslan as I have found a bill that reveals two Conroy brothers. The MC I saw so many times at belle Vue was James Martin Conroy , I was aware he had been a wrestler Chopper Conroy and always thought that he had previously been Cordite.

Hack may have an opinion on this. It all seems new.

Look at this bill. There are lots of bills putting him much more than welterweight though and I believe 14 stones is about right.

News to me Ruslan. I always thought he started out as Viper Conroy soon to be Cordite and about 13 stones , more in later years. He was from Leigh.

He did get billed London. I shall run an eye over the possibility of two wrestlers.

I'll be back.