CURIOUS MORRELL ENCLAVE-LIME GROVE!!

Some say Morrell WAS Hitler.

He sure was Main Mask.

In the 1936 Olympic Games Norman Morrell competed in both the Greco Roman and freestyle competitions in the featherweight class. In the Greco Roman competition he lost to the French wrestler Eugene Kracher and the German Sebastian Hering. In the freestyle competition he opened with a win over Germany's Josef Bock before going on to be beaten and eliminated by the eventual silver medal winner, Frank Millard of the USA, and the Italian Marco Gavelli. On the domestic scene Morrell was near invincible at his weight. He was British featherweight champion for four consecutive years, from 1933 to 1936.

https://www.wrestlingheritage.co.uk/m-morrell

I've found a bit more about the Lime Grove history but not the answer to The Ost's query of the start of Morrell's tenure at Lime Grove Baths. Well it goes back a long way, definitely pre-dating Norman Morrell, with the first show on 17th October, 1932.

Look at those prices! More than I was paying in 1965.

Promoters were Jack and Maurice Bodinetz, who had started out as boxing promoters and put on

wrestling in the south of England. In May, 1934 they were fined £25 each for selling tickets to a wrestling show at Lime Grove Baths without the Entertainments Tax stamp.

Following the war wrestling resumed at Lime Grove in 1946. Morrell was already promoting by then so he may have been the promoter but I don't know. An article on wrestling at Lime Grove Baths was published in the Daily Mirror of January

18th, 1949. The promoter was named as Bradford born Walter Morrell. I wonder if this was Norman, another member of the Morrell family (surely not) or shoddy journalism.

Lime Grove was one of the first venues for tv wrestling.On Tuesday 3rd January, 1956, Norman Walsh beat Reg Williams and Harry Fields drew with Alan Colbeck.

Earliest I can see is the beginning of 1936. That would be before Morrell's time.

I have no idea when wrestling commenced at Lime Grove, but I am fairly certain my father and his friends were in attendance during the mid 1950's. Lime Grove, as did a number of London venues, used

to be advertised in the old London Evening News, and was sometimes mentioned in the local weekly paper, which in those days had a healthy circulation. Of course,

when televised wrestling started in 1955

it gave Lime Grove, in common with many other locations, a considerable boost.

The venue usually staged first class wrestling often superior to anything promoted by Dale Martin and came to an end as the victim of a development scheme instigated by the local council.

Just wanted to follow up on this a bit more. I talked to Dave Cameron about this and he said much the same things as ballymoss. It was the one venue in London where you could see all the name wrestlers from up North. But they would all leave town after the show. What I'd like to try and pinpoint is when Morrell began running there. I've come across an advertisement from the beginning of 1949 and Morrell is already running Lime Grove. So this was well established by the 60s.

Good wrestlers, good bills.

I regularly attended Lime Grove Baths from the early to mid 1960's, and it was indeed rather different to the other wrestling shows staged in London at this time.

The venue was certainly austere, having probably last been given a coat of paint pre-war, with rather uncomfortable seating, and refreshments-tea or coffee, served from a large urn. The programmes and

handbills had a dated appearance- so glamorous it was not, being a far cry from the stylish Paul Lincoln and Dale Martin.

However, what was of the highest standard, at least when I visited, was the quality of wrestling staged.Overseen usually by the two Ernests- Lofthouse (MC) and Baldwin (referee) in a dour fashion-Mr Lofthouse always referred to contests and tournament in his introduction, it gave us Southerners the opportunity to regularly see the leading Northern stars with such heavyweights as Geoff Portz, Albert Wall, Billy Joyce and among the lighter brigade champions Alan Colbeck, Jack Dempsey and Melwyn Riss. From overseas I can remember such great talents as George Gordienko, Gideon Gidea and Josef

Kovacs while the promoter shrewdly booked local West London based wrestlers such as Spencer Churchill. Billy Stock and Reg Trood, who always received loyal support, and the notorious Peter Rain,who certainly did not. Even Alan Garfield was cheered although his opponent was Danny Lynch.

I believe Norman Morrell made a good investment when he decided to stage wrestling at Lime Grove as he was rewarded with a loyal, large attendance, and subsequent television coverage. Sadly it is nearly 60 years since I first went to Lime Grove and it is wonderful to see this quirky but wonderful venue still remembered- in my case very fondly indeed.

Sorry I got the wrong end of stick,keep going.

No Big Al, I was appreciative.

But no worries, I can handle these lightweights!

Hi Anglo,I not sure if you were having a pop at me,but I did feel sorry for you at getting some stick.

might have to change my mind!!

I don't know why you are worrying about what should be done with Logan's weight and the classification of his bouts. We are describing history here, we can't change it. Done and dusted.

Logan and Kellett appeared in thousands of heavyweight bouts. That's a fact. I explained the justification for that, the logical system applied by the promoters over years, one that I went along with.

Main Mask, if you want to say that was wrong, that's your prerogative. But that's what happened.

Consider that in the same era Henry Cooper was British Heavyweight champion, fighting all the big worldwide names. Henry never weighed in over 14 stones. Wrestling was keen to mirror boxing in many ways. Logan's weight class was plausible then; admittedly not with hindsight when, 50 years later, 20 stones is just an everage US wrestler.

As for Big Al, no worries at all. It's only when someone climbs off the very long fence to make an interesting comment that others join in. On this Sloppiest of threads, in terms of insertions and comments (☺), I see you have selected another choice example of everywhere south of Coventry being London. Graham and Arras get their towns specified (what a surprise, both in Yorkshire) whilst the rest, including Maidstone's Aaron, are Londoners. And this at a London venue. Dreadful.

I do feel as a result of this thread, however, the imminent revelation from Roneology that there was in fact a fourth Yorkshire Crabtree brother ... who wrestled under the name of Kwango.

Sorry you had to take some stick anglo, mate wish I hadn't put the lime grove programme on the forum

ha ha.

I would imagine Logan went over 14 stones at some point. He was a pretty rugged guy , big chest. I would say five eight when he was younger.

I met him as quite an old man , much weight lost but still must have been thirteen stone.

Marino also must have been well over 14 stone , just maybe not 15 stone.

Bernard and Main Mask, you say that I " omit to comment on the criticism of your remarks. " I specifically did. This is what forms the progression of these threads.

But when you start to make comments like that, this forum is going in the wrong direction. I want to discuss wrestling history here, not squabble about form.

Criticism needs to be valid. You stick to your "fact" that Kwango had a northern accent and be happy.

As for Logan, you seem very certain that he weighed 13st10lb, Main Mask. There's nothing "official" in any of this, it's wrestling theatre. But if you want some kind of authoritative benchmark, Logan regularly featured in the ratings in the light-heavyweight division, never, as I recall, in any lower bracket.

I haven't the faintest idea what's going on, but I can see they were still running shows at Lime Grove in 1971. Also the suggestion of a pint is a good one.

Whose turn is it to get the next pint in?

Kwango from West Africa and Masambula from Gambia? Not when i spoke to them. Their parents or Grandparents might have been, but both of them had Northern accents.

Also how come you twist everything to be in your favour? You omit to comment on the criticism of your remarks.

I don't see that Main Mask, the Ost and myself agreeing with you.

Who did?

Flood of criticism, Bernard? I am flattered that the gentlemen have endorsed my original comment, which was: "This sloppiness bears the hallmarks of Crabtree promoting 6 years later." That makes 1975+, precisely the years they describe of horror programmes.

Main Mask: we discussed some years ago that bouts involving a light-heavyweight versus say a heavyweight could be legitimately decribed as Heavyweight bouts. In fact, we seldom see the word catchweight when heavyweights are involved, though Colin Joynson, with his shorter height, di feature in them when facing the likes of McManus. Kellett was billed in so many heavyweight bots.

True, Logan was British heavy-middleweight champion, but he did spend much of his time as a light-heavyweight in heavyweight bouts against the likes of Viedor and Caswell and even a great mismatch I witnessed against Rocky Wall. Same for loads of light and mid-heavies like Bobby Graham, Czeslaw, and indeed Bob Kirkwood here.

I was comfortable with this all-embracing heavyweight terminology as without it there would have been far too many catchweight bouts.

That November bill is much better, but its a handbill and it sounds like Norman speaking. But he is speaking to those who haven't yet bought a ticket. It's sad when you have paid your money and then fork out extra for an over-priced glossy programme only to find it pretty much without content.

November 1969 bill at lime grove baths!!

Oh dear Anglo.What have you done to get this flood of criticism on one of your posts?

See I told you trouble would follow.

Now please be a good fellow and admit that not all DM stuff was so good.

My favourite era of sloppy programmes (did I really just write that?) would have to be the DM ones from mid 1975 through mid 1976. Looks like they were running low on Letraset as well as having the occasional bad day with patchy colours. Inside sometimes there is no editorial at all and just a bunch of badly cropped pictures. Things picked up a bit after that.

" Kwango from West Africa and Masambula from Gambia.. " ... that's right, that was their billing for many years, no quibble with that. Similarly Leon Fortuna on the above bill from the Friendly Isles.

But merely putting Steve Logan from London doesn't work for a London audience. Might suffice in Aberdeen, not in London.

Johnny Williams from Wales - similarly hardly great attention to detail.

Wayne Bridges from Highbury - simply wrong.

At the same time, 1969, Dale Martin were printing far more detailed programmes in London, and generally far more accurate.

Does this matter or is this nit-picking? I think it really matters as an element in establishing 1969 wrestling as a credible sport.

While we're at it: I like a programme to state the rounds and the officials and also the main event. All seems to have been too much bother on this sloppy programme.

Anglo, I note your comments in post above.

DM like Morrell were also guilty of this "sloppiness" that you talk about.

I just read a DM bill for Hammersmith with Lindy Caulder from Australia !, Kwango from West Africa and Masambula from Gambia..

how long have you been interested in wrestling?

ALL of the promoters did this to make bills seem more interesting.

Or are you going to disagree with me on this?

You can see the northern promoter's loose grip on geography with Wayne Bridges billed from Highbury. And he just couldn't bring himself to write the dreaded word BRIXTON for Steve Logan. Didn't exactly have his finger on the pulse of what his London audience might expect, did he?

This sloppiness bears the hallmarks of Crabtree promoting 6 yrears later, surprised to see Norman at this level. Must have delegated ...

Norman Morrell promotions at lime grove in October 1969!!!

Also of interest Morrell is selling his magazine, 'Mat' whereas the other DM venues would be more likely to have 'Combat' or 'Arena' (I think Combat morphed into Arena but i'm not sure).

Morrell & Beresford seemed to have their stake in a number of London venues including Seymour Hall & Harringay Arena. Would love to know more about this.

Nice vintage stuff, Hack. And amidst all the brackets and detail, for some unfathomable reason - a photo of Ted Beresford!

It's odd but not that odd. Morrell had business interests in dozens of companies and note it is Norman Morrell (London). This is pre Joint Promotions. Dale Martin are believed to have been reluctant to join Joint Promotions, hence joining a year after everyone else, and were subject to some persuasion from Morrell. There seems to have been little trust between them and maybe Morrell wanted to keep a foot in the door as far as the south was concerned. No evidence at all but I have heard Morrell had a financial stake in Dale Martin, though wasn't a Director.

Morrell also had a foothold in Portsmouth. Why , again I don't know.

Another angle from this interesting research is that Main Mask's 16 years from 1951 also coincidentally end in 1967. So, quite in contrast with Saxonwolf's theory, maybe it was a double-cross, a conspiracy - and this actually led to the end of 16 years of Morrell at Lime Grove. And some falling out.

I can't remember seeing the bout on tv, Saxonworlf, but those who do have described McManus's desperation. It doesn't sound like an angle: if it were, Preston would have continued on DM bills and they would have had rematches and he would have had publicity. But he was blanked.

Also, when we interviewed the late Peter Preston at his house several years ago, although remaining tight-lipped, he clearly indicated the match was against script. On whose orders or initiative he would not say. (Put it down to wrestling ability ...yawn, dear late PP)

Morrell clearly wanted to maintain his foothold in London and retaining Lime Grove was clearly a clause in the 1953 entry of DM to Joint Promotions - Norman's Joint Promotions. Another point would be whether Morrell also relinquished some other London venues at that time; and whether DM similarly relinquished any northern venues?

Norman Morrell - the kingpin of the Golden Era of British Wrestling.

The man who set up the Mount-Evans committee and steered it towards everything he wanted, bringing along his local MP, to add political clout. The brains behind the new rules of wrestling, the weight classes, the title belts.

I agree, that having sole control of one venue, a long way from his Northern strong hold does seem strange, but then, the Wrestling business can appear strange at times!

I am now wondering whether the McManus vs Preston match was not a double cross, as some people think, but that Morrell had ordered a Preston win, and McManus argued (successfully) that it would be better for him to be disqualified, to keep his villainous image intact?

Why do you think that Mick and DM would agree to this match?

Normally Mick would not be wrestling for Norman Morrell or JP.

Curious isn't it?