DADDY CIRCUS-EVEN MCMANUS AND LOGAN!!

Anglo Italian "In McManus's defence, he may humbly but misguidedly have been thinking that veterans needed to roll over in time-honoured fashion. He did it in singles for Tony St Clair, Mal Sanders and others. Admittedly more elegantly. For him to have said No in the Crabtree tyranny may have come across as churlish."

But this was nothing like St Clair, Sanders and others. They were youngsters on the up and Mick was doing his bit and helping them up the ladder. Crabtree had been topping the bill for 20 odd years. "It needed someone with integrity to protest. Unfortunately, no such person existed."

A few did. But not McManus.

It hadn't struck me this thread was a criticism of Shirley. It's a criticism of McManus and Logan.

As for Alan's comments they provide food for thought. Although there have been harsh comments about Shirley on here there have been positive ones too and balanced comments about his contribution over the period from 1952 - 1992. Negative comments have been of the last few years, that he went on too long (we have criticised many for that - McManus, Marino, Bartelli et al) and that he was overused, the blame being placed on Max not Shirley. I wouldn't have considered it Daddy bashing, but if that's how Alan perceives it then we should listen. More serious is the thought that others may not post because of a perception of anti-Daddy. One thing we have protected is the right to express opinions without personal insults being flung. We certainly want and need new contributors, especially from the 1980s, where many of us lack knowledge.

Bill is spot on "Room for all fans should be the motto."

Thanks Alan.

Positivity is the way forward.Shirley Crabtree was a pretty fair villain,even though he was somewhat limited.He morphed into Big Daddy,who became a comic book character,I'm sure (Mad) Max would have booked him to beat Hulk Hogan if he could only have persuaded Hogan to accept £75 to fly over and take BIG D on.Still he attracted a young pre-teenage audience who wanted to see the belly-bump.Room for all fans should be the motto.

What a thoughtful post by alanapally. I don't agree entirely about the Big Daddy bashing, there are more negative comments than positive but that is probably due to the age of the contributors. I have seen a lot of balanced views about Big Daddy, and most of these comments put the blame with McManus. But he is right that all the wrestlers were guilty of shady bouts. They were all did the same job and were paid to deceive the fans. They did the job well.

Some valid points there Anglo. The small pool comment was directed at the few on Heritage who are constantly negative towards Joint's main attraction and the Crabtree's in general who were lets face it keeping a dying interest going, after all the Independents also had their share of good and bad bills including promoting men who didn't even work for them. It would be nice to see comments on Heritage from newbies who may have initially been attracted to professional wrestling through initially watching Big Daddy who went on to appreciate the sport on a more technical level, but are afraid to speak for fear of been labelled " not a proper wrestling fan." The great Steve Regal once said in an interview he new nothing about the sport when he first started, and stated he wasn't a natural. Yet he went on to become a superstar.

My own era was the 1970s - 80s, i was an amateur wrestler and a bodybuilder in the early to mid 80s and although i love/loved the technical side of British pro wrestling i also enjoyed some of the theatrics also. The sport was dying, one person or organisation wasn't to blame. Anglo once asked a contributor on Heritage not to destroy his boyhood memories of Mike Marino. The same can be said for those silent people who idolised Big Shirley too! Lets have less slagging off and more positivity.

Can't blame McManus & Logan for the Nagasaki & Gorgeous George bout (which they had practised in Belfast).

The imposing George E. Gillette of 1972 mutated quickly into an over the top pantomime character and, appallingly, denegrated the menacing Kendo Nagasaki persona.

McManus & Logan did what they could with the situation.

But that mid-seventies George Gillette was as negative for the industry as Big Daddy was a few years later.

Shirley Crabtree was a fine wrestler and 1972 heel.

George E. Gillette a fine manager.

But Big Daddy and "Gorgeous George" did not fit in with the serious wrestling sport/spectacle. They challenged too many fans' intelligence too much.

Maybe children could associate with Big Daddy; maybe there were adults who could associate with George Gillette in a wig and make-up kissing his wrestler. But those groups were not broad enough to ensure interest in the thousands of serious bouts that the likes of Terry Rudge and Alan Kilby and Steve Grey were trying to perform at the same time.

Some casual punters were probably just happy to see a household name live, in his sequins.

The promoter was clearly happy for very short term gain.

Small pool ? I think not sir.

I seem to recall a term called “Granny Bashing” being used many years ago. The Heritage version appears to be “Daddy” bashing lol. The only admirable thing about it is that it’s done in polite manner, unlike some sites in the past. Both McManus and Logan were just as guilty of shady bouts as the next man. Look at their televised tag encounter .V. Gillette & Nagasaki, come on, that beating they delivered to George was laughable! As for them defeating much heavier and more powerful opponents in solo action I.e Logan .v. Dave Bond it goes to show that every participant was part of the game.

Also not sure how true the incident with Spiros Arion and Wayne Bridges was. If the sole source of the information are the comments made by Adrian Street in one of his books then I wouldn’t take that to be the gospel, his bitterness towards the Crabtree‘s is obvious. From what I’ve read over the years the Banger / Daddy shoot showdown was instigated by none other than a young and loathsome (even at that age Piers Morgan). Typical of the press they built up the business with positive articles and features around that era then attempted to bury wrestling completely.

Don’t get me wrong I grew tired of Shirley’s bouts as he got older also. But I can’t see many unhappy faces in his televised contests. Shirley was a hero to many ordinary people and he gave them what they wanted. The younger Shirley Crabtree must have had some positive qualities about him, after all he did hold a version of the British Heavyweight crown on 2 occasions and the European title 1 time, and need I say he defeated the man who beat Assiratti for his title. There have been a lot of Chinese whispers concerning Big. D. over the years, such as been run out of the business by Assiratti, Chris Colt, Hans Streiger and for me they appear to stem from bitterness and with time have been proven to be untrue.

I dare say Heritage has many subscribers to it’s pages, and many of them may even have been Big Daddy fans in their time, but you won’t see any contributions by them in fear of being shot down by the small pool of Crabtree/Daddy bashers.

Disappointing that both Mick and Steve, sold out to the Crabtree’s. The usual circus, Daddy tags in at the end and cleans up the mess. Same old formula, but the true wrestling fans weren’t convinced.

McManus could have said "Come on Max, me and Logan together aren't as big as Shirley, the crowd won't believe it if we are in the same ring, this is a crazy idea".

You would have thought people would have respected that, at office level?

If not, then maybe Max thought Mick needed bringing down a peg or two, for some reason?

Just thinking on ...

In McManus's defence, he may humbly but misguidedly have been thinking that veterans needed to roll over in time-honoured fashion. He did it in singles for Tony St Clair, Mal Sanders and others. Admittedly more elegantly. For him to have said No in the Crabtree tyranny may have come across as churlish.

It needed someone with integrity to protest. Unfortunately, no such person existed.

Except for Pat Roach.

Good point, Hack. They were all guilty of disrespecting the business and the fans.

I was surprised by your revelation Main Mask.

I don't think we should have too much sympathy for McManus. He was old enough and big enough to say S** it, I can't be bothered with this garbage. He didn't. He chose to take the pay packet.

Usual Crabtree BS innit. Finley, Rocco, Quinn etc all made to look stupid so the cash cow in his giant baby grow could look like some kind of wrestling superman. Shame that real fight with Banger Walsh never happened, ole wobble bott would have been shown for what he really was. Hope alls good with you Adrian.