Did the Heavyweight division eventually lose its way?

Gordienko going was a point when a true star was lost

The spring 1981 match between Steele/Singh has now reached 181,000 You Tube viewer by far the most for any World of Sport match. Widely seen as "real" by the twenty first century viewers

One of the peculiarities of this forum (well I find it peculiar) is that if you reply to a post by clicking "Reply" to a specific post (rather than posting at the end of the thread) the reply (on a long thread) is hidden. So I had to search for the latest post of 28 minutes ago from Dave Pennington. It was hidden under Ruslan's post of Dec 1, 2018.

Anyway, it's worth a look for a splendid mock photo of Harry Pennington v Joe Reid.

Thanks for sharing it with us Dave. So, are you related to Harry, and if you've anything you can add to our tribute to Harry please get in touch.

Harry Pennington

(This is on Wrestling Heritage and requires a separate membership from the Talk Wrestling Forum).

When we watched people like Bill Robinson, Albert Wall and Ian campbell it did seem like proper wrestling. They were so powerful and big, but not in the oversized way that came in the 80s. There was a real drama of seeing someone like Prince Kumali posted and the ring shuddering or a test of strength between Wall and Davies. These men brought drama that seemed to be lost when very able men like Tony St Clair, Ray Steel and Tiger Singh came along. Someone once said that tv made everyone look the same size.

Very insightful post. Tastes do change and we are always influennced by what is popular overseas. Maybe Max saw that style over substance was the way forward and name and character would outshine gritty realism. I think this partly answers the question but I think that the lure of All Star really splintered the heavyweight division and required new stars to come to the fore more rapidly. For me, wrestlings apeal was in the slow burning feud, rivalry built over months a years not days and weeks.

I think the Tiger Singh/Ray Steele era was pivotal.

They were intended to carry on the tradtion of all those great sixties heavyweight champions like Joyce, Wall, Robinson, Davies, Gordienko, Portz, Campbell, as well as all their valiant opponents,

For some reason, when their time came, Steele and Singh's undeniable expertise failed to cut the mustard with fans. They concentrated so hard and unsmilingly as they no doubt had done in countless amateur bouts, they were focused on the skills. Only die-hard fans like Norfolk Snake above could appreciate these skills, but were far outnumbered by the more superficial casual fans who wanted sensationalism.

Maybe we do Max Crabtree a disservice? Maybe he did try the traditional approach and quickly saw it failing to fire. Maybe he quickly decided to bestow top titles on "good looking boys" in Tony St Clair and Wayne Bridges, abandoning the hitherto essential demand that champions be shooters.

Am I right that Tiger was a shooter?

Tony St Clair versus Quinn was on TV in the very early days of satellite and is now on You Tube. Screensport had many of the wrestlers missing from ITV as did Channel Four in Wales

I have always thought that it began dying when the last of the legends, or "characters" passed on, and at all weights, not just heavyweight. From the likes of Bernard Murray, The Royals, George Kidd, Dennis & Don Mitchell, Jackie Pallow, up to Bruno Elrington, Big Daddy, Klondyke Bill, and others. Once they disappeared from the fray, there were no characters or comedians to take their place. Many have tried and failed, however, right up until the present day. It´s only my opinion, though.

I also felt gutted that we could see St Clair arguably at his peak battling Quinn at our local halls (and these were epic battles!) and not see it on TV. Just how good would it have been if all those mentioned heavyweights could have been at it at the same time. Roach, Singh, and Bridges alongside the 'defectors' St Clair and Quinn and throw in Kincaid, Neil Sands and Dave Taylor from that era and we would have had some right ol fashioned heavyweight battles on the telly !

I agree with a lot of that Norfolk, Dave Taylor was a very good heavyweight from a wrestling family. He was a credible champ, as was the beefed up Tony St. Clair.

So, being of the latter generation of WOS fans I began watching in the late 1970s until its demise and followed All Star for a while afterwards. My impression of the heavyweight division on TV was that it definitely had lost its way with the Big Daddy era. I did however think it made a significant come back in quality towards the end particularly in All Star when most of the last good heavy weight workers jumped ship from Joint. The only heavyweight footage we can see of the earlier 70s that were repeated on the freeview channels with people such as Elrington, Yearsly, Gwyn Davies, Marino, Tibor, Bartelli et al seemed very slow and deliberate and not to the same standard as we wanted to believe. This is my thoughts from viewing what footage exists. In contrast the latter day All Star heavyweights and some of Joints were far more fast moving and hard hitting. My thoughts are actually the reverse to the majority on here. I thought (again from what I have only seen) that men such as Bridges, St Clair, Rudge, Taylor, Roberts, Steele, Singh, Roach, Steve McHoy, Pete Stuart (there's a name seldom mentioned on here!) and of course Dave Taylor produced some brilliant and far more believable wrestling. I think had TV wrestling have continued as it is my thoughts that the situation would have got far better and Dave Taylor would have proven himself to have been one of the best UK heavyweights...ever! Obviously he had his run as champion post TV as did Jones and Finlay (and you can't ever knock them either!) but having watched Dave Taylor emerge from the old Wrestling Enterprises of Birkenhead shows all the way through to the WWE, I think he is by far one of the Uk's best heavyweights from a forgotten era, yet sadly under rated on here. Obviously I never had the chance to witness wrestlers such as Wall, Davies, Joyce, Portz and Robinson in their real heyday...but I still think Ray Steele and Dalibar Singh and Pat Roach all had some terrific matches on TV that were anything but the low standard some of the writers on here might have us believe.

Gwyn Davies versus Steve Viedor at the Royal Albert Hall in 1976 was one of the last impressive British Heavyweight title matches

An interesting comment about tags Mark. The combination of wrestlers did add to the importance. Main event was usually third in my experience though, tags were usually last.

In the 1960s it seemed that heavyweights were always top of the bill. Tag teams made a difference as they sometimes removed the heavyweights from the top spot, By 1970 there were a group of lighter men regularly main eventing - Pallo, McManus, Kidd, Royal being the obvious ones.

Very true Ost. Each season (started September) we would look forward to being told which overseas wrestlers would be appearing in our rings. There were dozens each year until the late 1960s/early 1970s when their numbers began to lessen. Great days.

Not having seen it, but just from looking at the lineups the late 1950's through to the early 1970's the heavyweight ranks of the UK were filled with great names from around the world.

David as always details, details and more details !!! Great Job !!! Appreciate a lot !

Rocco was never a heavyweight, Finlay only became one at the start of the 90s and Marty Jones finally became one in the mid 90s. The dominant heavyweights of the next years after TV in old school British Wrestling were in the early 90s Kendo, St Clair, Singh, Finlay, Roach, Stax, Dave Taylor and Big John Prayter and then from the late 90s into the early 00s Marty, Karl Kramer, Justin Starr, Drew McDonald and a fully grown Robbie Brookside and Doug Williams. After that, the torch was passed to the next generation such as James Mason, Rampage Brown, Darren "Thunder" Walsh and Dean Allmark. Accumulated injury was to stop Danny Collins progressing beyond Light Heavyweight (at least until his 2010s comebacks) Steve Regal was on his way to becoming a force to be reckoned with when WCW snapped him up. One hot prospect who never fulfilled his potential was Boston Blackie who was tipped for big things but ended up as a tribute version of the Rock.

When I was little the only known to me pro-wrestling was American and Japanese. The first British wrestler of championship class I knew of was actually one of the top heavies in the country - Pat Roach, I saw him playing "arch-villain" in the Indiana Jones movies.

Hi Hack.I think in the 60's and 70's it was still a bit of a novelty to have a giant on the bill.Really used to enjoy seeing Klondike Bill on the card because it was quite rare to see somebody so big.By the late 70's and early 80's it was commonplace to see a number of big men on the card.Oh and thanks for your kind comments on your post.

Another good and original topic started by Romeo, I'm envious that after all these years he can still think them up.

Then Ruslan pops in with a real historical perspective that tells us that heavies didn't always rule the roost. He's right that the Lancashire men that were the big names were not heavy men. In the 1930s professional revival there was a place for lighter men, but their role was to provide credibility and a balanced bill, the likes of Joe Reid and Johnny Summers didn't top the bills. Even the likes of Jack Pye and Norman the Butcher were not heavyweights by post war standards.

But that allows Ruslan to take us off track.

I guess what Romeo alludes to is that in the post war years the main event was usually a heavyweight match. Until a few smaller men, McManus, Pallo, Kidd broke the mould. That was television. Everyone looked the same size.

Until I lost my love for wrestling, around the mid 1970s, would still have said there was nothing like a powerful heavyweight match. I was a big fan of Saint, Breaks, Dempsey, Woolley and others in the lighter classes but there was nothing like seeing Rocky Wall getting to grips with Nagasaki, Mitchell's speed against Davies's power and Elrington's force against Veidor's athleticism.

In the late 1970s that began to change. Those men were gone or almost gone, but their place had been taken by Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, a now oversized Mal Kirk (let's continue to respect Mal in his earlier days). No respect to Wayne Bridges, Tony St Clair or Pete Roberts but in the 1980s they were swimming against the tide.

Yes Romeo by the 1980s the heavyweights had lost their way. Who are the ones we celebrate? Rocco, Finlay etc. Anglo Italian and myself have always said we need more of members (and the men themselves) in celebrating the men of the 1980s. By then we were off enjoying wine/beer, women and song.

Hi Romeo. The boys that you listed could wrestle. Powerlock hit on one of the main reasons to answer your question. It was yes!

The loss of Bill Robinson and Gordienko was huge. Having Kendo helped prolong things , but I think the best days had gone

I am pretty sure that match between Lancashire Heroes - Harry Pennington and Olympian Joe Reid (both of Leigh, Lancs) would draw more fans than any other weight class contest.

thanks so much for this great post, my appreciation...very interesting observation...in fact in the early 1900's during the Wrestling Boom Era, when they (National Sporting Club of London) were running those famous annual tourney's at Alhambra number of entrants of Lancashire birth in lightweight division (under 10st7lb) was HUGE literally ENORMOUS, in middleweight (under 12st) it was little in compare to the lightweight class, and yet there still were enough of Lancashire men to compete at that division,and in heavyweight it was mostly FOREIGNERS and some veteran-wrestlers (semi-retired) from Lancashire (who gained weight) who participated in it. Historically the most popular Lancashire Catch Wrestling category was 9st championship...so featherweights, their matches were the MOST technical, artistic and entertaining performances and always drew crowds of fans. Those men were the craftiest of all of them. And by the way colliers weren't a big guys.

Heavyweight Wrestling was as a spectacle was shot the moment the Big Daddy circus was allowed to reign supreme. The title was worthless as big Shirley had almost everyone lying down for him so the belt had no credibility. Its why I preferred the lighter weights, good Wrestling, loads of action and loads of skill. It wasn't till all star started making in roads that heavyweight wrestling began to regain its credibility.

I think Heavyweight Wrestling in the U.K. 'died' after NAGASAKI retired due to injury in September

1978!-QUINN helped a bit as a Formidable Wrestler due to his size/weight but ROACH was in and

out-gave up the Belt! BARTELLI was winding down-DAVIES and MITCHELL gone-MARINO gone!

SKULL MURPHY helped-but the whole 'dynamic' pivoted to the DADDY Circus which downgraded

the ACTUAL Wrestling itself!! A brief Revival with KENDO'S Return in 1986 wasn't enough to revive

Heavyweight Quality with 'Characters like KING KENDO/THE SPOILER etc around!

Also TOO MANY Fans were starting to 'defect' to WWF and after the ITV Plug was pulled-that

was virtually it! It was too far-fetched to believe ST.CLAIR could be defeating HAYSTACKS regularly

defending his 'Title'!! By 1980 the Golden Days were over which coincidentally was when my own

Interest in the Sport drastically waned!!

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