FOLLOWING THE BLACK DIAMONDS!....

Eric Cutler: The Wrestler May 1963.

John Foley: The Wrestler January 1963.

John Foley: The Wrestler April & August 1962.

A Jonit Promotions publication from circa 1979/80.

Abe Ginsburgh : The Wrestler July 1962 & October 1964.

Abe Ginsburgh: The Wrestler 1961.

"The Wrestler" January 1965.

"The Wrestler" December 1964.

"The Wrestler" November 1964.

The TVTimes March 1965.

I remember this occasion well Harold. The place was in uproar at th antics.I had only a shot time with Ginsy, just over a year and then I retired with back problems which I still have today aged 82 and needing a walking stick tom ge about. Trust you're doing well. EWould love to chat about those great days some time. Cheers! Eddie Rose

We need to retrieve Lesley.

I was very disappointed when Foley left. Admittedly I didn't appreciate the skills his colleagues did. He was just an exciting wrestler. But I had no concerns when Cutler came along. He just fitted into the role

Thanks for the interesting info above , we are always learning on here. You don't mention the Ginsberg name origin. I had stated earlier in the thread that I thought it had come from Polish Russia. Fascinating man.

I am John Foley's neice he was very big in America and

I am John Foley's

very interesting, calling a capable rassler the black diamond in East Lancashire is an old tradition which goes back all the way to the first generation of the great catcheurs, the 1840s.

Hi this has come up in a search I've done. My nephew is Peter Ginsbergs Grandson obviously my nephew will never be able to hear story's from his grandad. However I was wondering if anyone of you would be willing to scan a program with his name on and send it to me with any stories you may have so I can get a book together for my nephew

Hi MM

In about 1971 I acquired from the White Rock Pavilion Hastings about twenty wooden frames with glass covers, each to hold a full size poster. The old sixties style of publicity was changing. I painted them up and used to fiddle around with the nails and back panels, switching around my posters. One by one over a few years I broke all the glass panes until I had no frames left.

I had forgotten all about, your comment just brought back the memory. Could use your time-machine to go back and see them in all their glory!

Billy Bennette was Bill Bennett, from Southport,who was on TV (once I think) as Baron Donavan in a Big Daddy Tag. Looks like he also wrestled as Detroit Donavan.

Just for the record, Main Mask, mine aren't flyers. Most are full sized posters. Ten years ago I got some of them out and uploaded them to the Gallery, all Croydon ones.

When Croydon had weekly bills, the posters were half the standard width. About 1972 they went fortnightly, and the posters quadrupled in width.

My white one is a hanging card on string, which shops were encouraged to display.

Since The Ost questioned whether Tibor appeared mostly in supporting bouts for DM, he's popping up everywhere in support bouts.

I've got plenty of those Derby handbills, too, always great Woodhouse descriptions and a very strange long shape.

The eleven bob will have been for the extra petrol down to Devon, perhaps?

I could pore over this stuff all day ...

If it helps, I wrote a while ago about the decision of my fellow promoter at the time to pair Ginsberg with Rose as The Black Diamonds and I M.C.'d three of these shows where Miller promoted Abe and Eddie against The Borg Twins. i recall them well because they ended with Abe gaining the winning pin with his feet on the ropes, referee/promoter Miller counting the fall, Borg complaining that Ginsberg's feet were on the ropes, Miller coming over to consult with me and then me announcing the result whilst Ginsberg and Rose strutted around the ring with their hands held high in victory to a chorus of boos.

I would announce, "Ladies and gentlemen, The Black Diamonds (long pause as the boos reached a crescendo, then, when they died down) have been disqualified." I then got into an argument with Rose which resulted in him pushing me and me losing my rag and throwing him around the ring which the crowd loved. All that happened of course was that I took him by the back of the neck and he did a forward roll across the ring. I would run up to him, grab him by the back of the neck again and he would forward roll to the other side. this happened several times until he slid under the ropes and headed for the safety of the dressing room away from the mad M.C.

The idea came from The Borgs. They thought I looked a funny little man and that it would add humour to the proceedings to have me losing my rag and throwing this wrestler around. Their initial idea was for me to throw Ginsberg and then Rose but Ginsberg, forever protective of his dignity, refused so I only did it with Rose.

I have opined the fact that I have kept very little from these days (and what i have kept i can't find) but the helpfulness which I promised at the start of this is to recall (I think accurately) that the three halls were The Town Hall, Congleton, The Memorial Hall, Northwich and The Queen's Hall, Widnes. These shows would have been in the late seventies.

Hard to put my hands on a bill for the Black Diamonds late 70's into the eighties although I have no doubts about Eddie , it was in his book.

Trouble with this period , in most cases the actual wrestling bill had deteriorated so not a lot of info.

Wonder if we have a picture of Eddie in the helmet.

Abe seemed to to a lot of singles as The Black Diamond Ginsberg and I have even seen him tagging with Bobby Baron

Great shares, thank you.

Interesting to see those late (1969) cinema shows still regularòy featuring a Hayes or Hunter, even when Lincoln affiliations had largely evaporatind.

You're right, Main Mask, a guinea was steep, but interestingly precisely double the mythical 10/6.

Tremendous cinema bills. The Black Diamonds were clearly box office, the way the London promoters wanted them.

Crusher Verdu billed as an ogre! If he'd appeared 50 years later, he'd have been billed as Shrek.

And Mad Jock Cameron billed as 6'5" ???

I am sure we must have had this on before but I will show it on this thread.

Black Diamonds as above February 1965 , no Skullcaps. Great match. It's the beards and dark costumes , sheer menace and some good uppercuts.

Just as an aside The Black Diamonds were neither the start or finish of tag wrestling for John Foley.

He made a good living out of it.

I have a 1958 example and over in North America I find him often tagging and just noticed Lenny Hurst is there 1976 a few years after his time in Stampede with Kendo.

I'll throw one in where The Black Diamonds were against Bkendo1 and partner , if you know your wrestling.

To analyse it further Wryton did not have control of where Mick and Steve could appear , Hells Angels had not been formed at that time , I am not sure if Dennison and Cooper had formed and I think a bit early for Tony St Clair. The White Eagles might have been a good Wryton bet but with the boom in Tag it looks to me as though Wryton formed this team to make the Royals look good.

The script that worked the best was Good Guys v Bad Guys and Wryton needed their own bad guys and the Black Diamonds were a Masterstroke.

Once they got this one working it must have been a cash cow for the promoters.

Those leather helmets and beards and the tough guys stance absolutely hit it.

O.K. thanks to Ost's contribution the debut was at the end of 63.

Looks like a bit of time to think about it and then a big push , and boy was it a push in March 64.

Marvellous research.

Nine times in a month. Just goes to show how sure the promoters were that fans didn't travel. That's confirmed by the fact that Ron has only discovered this today, 56 years late.

How pleased they were NOT to be on the sports pages.

Great work Ron, any chance you can find this one?

Dec 21, 1963: WALLASEY(TV);Ali Bey 1-1 Davis;Royals bt Black Diamonds;Williamson DKO Downs;D.Armstrong bt Lees

I have a bit more now....March 64

2nd Blackpool

5th Chester

6th Liverpool

7th Bolton (also billed at Hanley but switched I think)

9th York

Then later in the month

24th Newtown

26th Bolton

27th Glasgow

28th Hanley

So that is Royals v Black Diamonds 9 times in March 1964

By the time it hit the big halls it must have been perfection.

And just when I thought the debut could have been Liverpool on 6th March followed by Bolton on 7th , I should have known better. Would Wryton have let Best make the first show.

No.....here in Wryton land on the 5th March we have Chester making it three nights running.

It is a real insight as to the promotional strategy that it seems to be over a year before this particular matching was shown at Kings Hall and St James Hall unless I have a gap in my collection.

I cannot beat the 6th March at Liverpool for their debut , but look at this amazing following night , an unusual Saturday night at Wryton Stadium with the same bout again. And an explanation as to the Saturday show. This really was a top line match.

And then that trip up to Glasgow , I can reveal the previous night Wryton did a Thursday show. So again Bert, Vic and the Diamonds did Easter Friday at Glasgow after working the night before.

I can go a bit earlier with the same bout , saw it myself a few times in later years , always good.

I'll start you off with an early 1964 , and on the bill they were not named , but they certainly were in the Daily Mirror write up.

The write up was about the boom in Tag Wrestling and largely featuring the Royals.

MM also asked for Foley v Ginsberg.

I think your info is probably right and sloppy billing at Liverpool. Maybe Best was not in the loop.

Early July Newcastle advertise Ginsberg/Foley , then late July they don't specify and then 13th August it's Cutler.

It's a bit of fun in the Lockdown , I'll try and check a few more halls out.

MM , I can give you a tight window for Foley/Ginsberg and Ginsberg/Cutler , but of course there may not have been a smooth change over.

John Foley was very much underrated as a wrestler his knowledge was underused he could turn on crippling sub holds at will when he chose too his ringcraft was there for all to see he could wind up a crowd by actually doing very little.On a return visit from Canada we met I think in Burslem and someone threw a paper cup in the ring harmless obviously however he used that bit of cardboard on my left eye for the remainder of the bout and nearly caused a riot,he also introduced me to a straight arm lift like jimmy but with hand bent inwards sheer agony.He and fallon loved using the Lancashire Cravat as a reminder of who was running the bout.Ginsberg what a character got a bollocking for saying he collected Swedish birds without feathers in a newspaper interview although allowed to repeat it in the who's who.Did a masterclass at the Royal Exchange Theartre Manchester on acting in the ring,that ruffled feathers.Anglo mentions Kent collusion with Ginsbergh re the helmets, but there was genuine annoyance when he tipped Kent out his seat resulting in a split lip.Abe was pushing his luck when going off script and following it up with Jackie Pallo in the dressing room old jack smoothed it with Wryton as the bout was in Hanley however word got back to Dales and southern appearances curtailed.Great character but very concerned over image and not easy to manage.

I recall Morrell/Beresford doing a similar eight bout show one Saturday at The King's Hall, Belle Vue, with five of the bouts featuring the various possible combinations of Bert Royal, Vic Faulkner, Peter Preston and Alan Colbeck. It was hastened along by Faulkner pinning Preston within seconds of the bell sounding for round one.

Ginsberg never told me that his real name was Peter Davies but Stuart Miller did. I have mentioned Miller before. We met as punters then decided in the mid-seventies to try our hand at promoting. I would have liked us to have promoted together but Miller wanted us to help one another on our shows but keep them separate. Waiting to be married, he rented accommodation from Ginsberg and that is how I was introduced to him. His landlord was registered as Peter Davies.

I recall that Ginsberg was very protective of that name and used to get quite annoyed when he turned up at a hall to see himself billed as Ginsburgh or some other variation. He was also annoyed that Pete Lindop adopted the wrestling monicker Pete Lindberg, reasoning that Lindberg was trying to cash in on his name.

Naievely, I suggested when he came over to the independents to put him in some tag bouts with Lindop (Ginsberg and Lindberg would have looked good on the posters, so I reasoned) and Abe went bananas with me and Stuart; so much so that "safe pair of hands" Eddie Rose was offered the jobs instead.

Think I might have cracked the Davies thing. It looks like his mum married after the war to (Albert Davies) So from 1946 he may have been Davies by adoption.

Ironically as you say he could have mixed the name from stepdad Albert and mums maiden name Ginsberg.

The spelling is half and half Ginsberg and Ginsburg with the odd Ginsburgh

Any living here born before 1860ish were always stated to be of Russia/Polish birth.

His mother Betty Ginsberg is confusing as she was born out of her manor.

She was the only one born in Chesterfield. I may crack it at a later date.

I leave you with the battle of the Beards.

above bill 1962

Let me start off by saying I loved Ginsberg , I just liked the way he looked and I remembered that he did antiques in Prestbury.

I very much remember his appearance in Brookside when he walked down the close to deal with actor Dicken Ashworth who kayfabe had split with his girlfriend Samantha. Needless to say Abe dished out a hiding.

Great that you ask about his name MM.

I will give you some absolute facts.

He was registered at birth and death as Peter Ginsberg.

born 31stDec1935.

In 1939 he lived at Hughes Street in Beswick , just off Ashton Old Road.

His mother at that time was Betty Jackson and she was only 21.

However she had been Betty Ginsberg and had married Fred Jackson in 1937 , but she was quickly widowed.

It seems pretty clear that Betty Ginsberg had him out of marriage at only 17.

Maybe his biological father was Davies.

It also looks as though Betty Ginsberg had been born in Chesterfield in 1918.

For the moment I am having trouble looking at her origins but this could soon ease in any case when the 1921 census comes out.

What I can say is that the Ginsbergs in England came in the middle 1800's with most families stating they were from Russia or Polish Russia. There were loads of them in Prestwich and many had these biblical names like Abraham and Solomon etc.

So our man Abe was almost certainly and genuinely descended from these immigrants. Would be nice if I could prove his Grandfather or great grandfather was an Abe Ginsberg.

I don't know where the Ginsberg came from. His real name was Peter Davies. He branched more into TV work in the latter years and spent quite some time in The Rovers Return sometimes playing darts with Bobo Matu. He was very proud of the fact that he was one step up from Bobo in that Bobo never spoke whereas Abe got the occasional line of dialogue tossed his way. He also appeared regularly on Granada Reports; particularly on their late night show on a Friday where he became something of a "character".

He built up a portfolio of flats which he let out; mainly to students. He also let some out to workers at commercial station Radio Piccadilly and blagged himself onto the airwaves. He had a show with Tim Grundy (son of Bill who clashed so famously with The Sex Pistols) where they would knock on the door of an unsuspecting householder , push their way in and run the show from the unsuspecting person's living room.

In 1979 I was such a householder. Bemused, I let them in to do the show but apologised that i was holding a rehearsal in my living room for a school play. I was a teacher at Henbury High School in Macclesfield at the time and, of course, inbetween records and adverts, part of my rehearsal ended up being broadcast on the show. Needless to say, like wrestling itself, the whole thing was arranged in advance.

Later that year I secured Abe's services for a modest fee to be the celebrity guest opener of the school's annual fete and part of his duties was to kneel alongside me in wooden stocks built by the head of woodwork whilst the eager pupils queued up to pay for soaking wet sponges which they chucked at us.

Phil Pearson catches the eye. I saw him on tv just the once and thought he was very very good.

Ginsberg must have had a good relationship with Kent Walton. Kent played along with his beefing and really built up the controversy about whether the helmets were legal or not. Kent's development of the vagueness was masterful work He created such a talking point.

On the French video we see the Black Diamonds billed as Americans with "Pete" being of Irish descent.

Great stuff as always Main Mask.

Abe Ginsberg did plenty of TV extra work in the late 70's and early 80's, including (apparently) being a custom of Stan Ogden and Eddie Yeates ice cream and beer van on Coronation Street!, he also appeared once in Brookside, so I wonder if he was the only British Wrestler to appear in two British soap opera's?

Great anecdotes Graham , and just a thought for Main Mask who loves a masked man. There is nothing new in wrestling and one wonders if they knew the name had gone before.

I am assuming he was masked and can't remember if he has cropped up before.

I am a little too young for the original Black Diamonds (Ginsberg/Foley) although I did see Foley once at King's Hall, Belle Vue, in the early seventies. He was wrestling primarily in the States by then but he returned home briefly (probably visiting family) and Morrell/Beresford matched him with Adrian Street.

The Black Diamonds of my punting days were Ginsberg/Cutler and I recall seeing them against The Pallos and the Untouchables (Arras/Graham) at the King's Hall, Belle Vue, against The Dennisons (Dennison/Heath) at the Pavilion Gardens, Buxton, against The Hell's Angels (Street/Barnes) at Fairfield Hall, Croydon, and against The Saints (Roy and Tony St.Clair) at the Gaiety Theatre, Rhyl.

In fact, as I have reminisced before on this site, the latter was three-quarters of my bill-topper in my first outing as a promoter with the difference at my show being that Roy and Tony faced a Black Diamonds combination of Ginsberg and Lee Sharron.

When Ginsberg came over to the independents The Black Diamonds was himself and anyone who would don his spare leather skull cap. I and my then friend Stuart Miller used the likes of Eddie Rose and Jimmy Munroe as Black Diamonds and, towards the end of his career, Abe did quite a lot of work in Blackpool for Bobby Barron and Tony Francis (I believe he was particularly good "on the stick" outside the venue persuading punters to come in) and Francis almost became the third official Diamond following on from Foley and Cutler.

Ginsberg was a difficult man but he did get me into the promoting game and it was off his back that I promoted my first show so, as the years pass, I tend perhaps to think back to the good moments and skip over the less happy ones. This current lockdown situation also helps one to get things into perspective and view events of the past in a more kindly light.

Ginsberg was also widely acknowledged within the game as being one of the really hard men alongside Keith Martinelli , Hans Streiger , Les Kellett and Jack Fallon whom you just don't cross.

JOHN FOLEY was around in the 1950's and at one point he Defeated JACK BEAUMONT for the BRITISH MIDDLEWEIGHT Title which he held for 6 Months or so before Losing it back to BEAUMONT!

Here these Two Clash at KIRKBY-IN-ASHFIELD!-FOLEY Won this Title at my Beloved BELLE VUE in 1957!!

MAIN MASK