George Kidd

The wizardry of Kidd is there to be witnessed and he must have spent a lot of time developing it. But as with everyone else it took the co-operation of his opponents for it to work.

Matey Dave asks

George Kidd

was it all a fix with steve logan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWr-i1E8qmw

And look where you book: Kidd and Wallace.

Gromit Kidd?

Just how much of Kidd rolling up into a ball could the fans take at the Caird Hall? He seems to have been on there every week.

Yes from here on Kidd was no doubt writing his own scripts , typical wrestling stuff that we have seen again and again.

For example

So , can you guess , of course Kidd v Colbeck are both champs , so it's a draw and Kidd does not get the Welter Title.

So they have a grudge match for £50 two weeks later and Colbeck loses his temper for Kidd to win the bout , but conveniently it's not a title match. Just to finish the Kayfabe , Kidd's people write to the British Wrestling Association asking for another title match.

All good stuff and it keeps the fans coming back.

These young men, Kidd, McManus, realised the importance of the non-internet age. By that I mean that they realised the limitations of communications. They pushed information, misinformation, billing and performance to the absolute edge. Boldly. Smiling. Maybe cynically. But providing ample entertainment to keep the punters coming back.

Good luck to Kidd if he was clever enough to get away with it all. As you say in 2020, "You never realised..." It's taken 70 years for him to be rumbled. Genius.

In a way, all his claims are true.

Depends what truth is .... in wrestling nothing is clear cut.

I never released how preposterous some of the information about Kidd is. His wikipedia page says he traveled to Mexico and unified the NWA World Lightweight title with the Mountevans title. Then it says he added Rene Ben Chemoul's "FFCP" World lightweight title to become the undisputed World Lightweight champion. Firstly, the NWA World Lightweight title wasn't created until November of 1952 and was a US title at the time. It became dormant and was resurrected by EMLL in 1958.

Secondly, there was no such thing as a "FFCP" title. The French promotions didn't have their own titles. If Kidd did beat Ben Chemoul for another World Lightweight title it would have been the Spanish version not this FFCP title.

None of this is a surprise given how wrestling works. Kidd liked to throw out the idea that he beat all comers and became the undisputed World Champion. Here is talking about it in 1977:

http://wrestlingfurnace.site/galleries/k/gkidd/gkidd21.jpg

For sure, but for them to be invited to a wedding is quite a thing, isn't it Bernard? I mean, had it been Chic Purvey or the like, well, you'd understand.

It's great to uncover these behind the scenes workings.

Les is in his last interview saying "Nobody in wrestling likes me" - even that seems to have been a porky. Unless he got very gnarled in the later years?

Hi Anglo. In the earlier days , both Norman Walsh and Les Kellett were often billed from various places in Scotland.

Perhaps they both worked up there and were adopted by the Scots, as they were both good wrestlers.

We shouldn't imagine that the favours only started in 1949. Kidd had been very active for four years, Mick for at least a few. Their paths would have crossed before and a friendship seems to have been built up.

The forms of friendship didn't need to be based on tit-for-tat favours, I believe. Both were promoters at a hidden level. It was enough to be like-minded with a vision for disciplined and structured pro wrestling. And let's not forget that we were in 1949, with heavyweights dominating top-of-the-bill bouts. These two tiddlers worked together to ensure the lighter weights would become big names nationwide, also on tv. Kidd worked a great deal in the south; Mick had all the Scots work he wanted (probably wasn't a great deal...) They mutually got themselves to the top of the bills and mutually ensured they stayed there.

In terms of these secrets, I am glad this tidbit is providing such interest.

There was another we sat on for quite a while. Hack and I nearly fell of our seats the day Mick's real name was revealed to us in strictest confidence. Now it's all over the internet and in his various obituaries, but the source was ours initially, a great confidence shared and we will NOT say who told us. We wove it for the first time into one of our articles, The McManus-Pallo feud, from memory. Hack did a great pre-Ron job in tracking down the precise details of the deed-poll.

My point being that wrestling is all about secrecy, just like the Magic Circle as I have said many times. Not just the secrecy about how bouts were, ahem, structured, but also about all these peripheral details. And we were fed so many red herrings - "Ian Campbell was a vet" - very effectively to keep us off the real scents.

There are other gems out there. Our mission is to go boldly .....

I too was fascinated by Kidd's wedding invitees, Bernard is of course delighted about Norman Walsh, but seeing Les "Nobody in wrestling likes me" Kellett also set me thinking .

Thanks Ron. I asked because I once saw a booklet produced by a fan in Scotland, which said that Norman Walsh was once in the Clyde river police.

I showed the article to Flo Walsh and she did not deny it.

I know that he was in the Tees river police later.

This may account for many Scottish bills showing him to be from places in Scotland.

Apologies to all for sidetracking this very interesting piece.

I can only think that in 1949 Mick had a long way to go. Dundee needed someone who had never been seen before with Black Hair so had to ask down South. This would have done Mick a lot of good and might even have been a lucrative trip.

They had plenty of bouts after this and Mick seems to have been thrown a few draws among defeats. Not so sure he won any. One later day write up about Kidd claims he only ever lost six bouts. Doubt if this is right.

It's amazing that every answer leads to another question. This has been a staggering revelation unless Bkendo1 can reveal otherwise.

It seems we have only scratched the surface of wrestling's secrecy.

So, if we are correct here (and JJ Pallo was telling a true story), then a young Mick McManus did a favour to George Kidd, in playing the part of Rudi Quarez and going down to a defeat, for George to claim a World LIghtweight title.

Was the favour returned?, did George let Mick win an important contest?

Mick McManus ends being a household name, and arguabley the most famous name in Wrestling, during the TV years. He probably doesn't need any favours from George Kidd, but I just wondered if Kidd ever felt it was the right thing to do.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Yes Bernard , 8th June 1949.

Hi Ron, please can you tell me the date of George Kidd's wedding?

Yes, a very small audience. The BBC only transmitted to London at this time, and tv sets could probably be measured in hundreds. The first transmitter outside London was Sutton Coldfield in December, 1949.

Worth noting McManus had been in a match on BBC in 1947. However, from what I can tell TV broadcasting didn't start in Scotland until 1952. (And of course, the viewing figures in England in 1947 would have been tiny, so it wouldn't have been a big risk of anyone recognising him off the back of that appearance.)

It's hard to imagine the early years of McManus, Pallo and Logan and accept that they were just low to mid card wrestlers for a long time.

These were the days of Jack Pye , Assirati , Ghoul , Anaconda.

Talking of friends of George Kidd , there were three at his wedding.

Norman Walsh . Les Kellett. Chick Purvey.

Hi Ron. I don't remember hearing about Mick McManus whilst I was going to St. James Hall. I think that I saw him on bills in the Evening Standard after I moved to the London area.

He was certainly well represented on the youtube matches, but that was later.

Been having a look tonight at Kidd / McManus matches and have not been able to find them meeting before the Mexican affair. From then on they seem to meet regularly , pretty sure I have them three times in 1950. Twice at Bristol (Dale Martin) and also Lincoln (Globe Promotions).

As another yardstick , I very much doubt that Mick had ever graced the Kings Hall in the first ten years of his career.

I do rate this one as another historic Forum Topic though. Marvellous.

The way Jackie Pallo Junior told us the story it wasn't hearsay. It was clearly a well-kept secret but also something he himself had discussed with Mick. Not just a tale from his dad. Surely Mick would have been very very proud of this deception. Just imagine if he'd won, he might have had a thirty-year career as a Mexican!

The very fact McManus never appeared at Caird Hall until 1955 (thanks Ron!) is a big confirmation, I'd say. He was absolutely everywhere in the fifties.

I see what you are saying about Mick and Relwyskow, Paul. This could also explain Mick's absence from the venue. But way back in 1949 had they really had time for bad blood to build up? Surely the "niggles" started after the formation of Joint Promotions.

But let's also not forget this was Dundee, Kidd's home patch where he was heavily involved in the promoting. He would surely have been the one setting up the bout and Relwyskow may not have come into it much at all. McManus probably overnighted at his house.

Just checked my archive and the newspapers on this one.

It looks like Mick had never worked at the Caird Hall before this bout in 1949 and up to the end of 1955 he never came back.

Dead easy to get away with this stunt in those days.

Wonder if Bernard can tell us when he became aware of a wrestler called Mick McManus. I suspect he could illustrate my point.

Ron as I said Mick did not have a good relationship with that promoter and Dale Martin would do anything they could to NOT help that promoter.I believe I know who George fought that night and it wasn't Mick it was a good and trusted friend of George Kidd,I think old Jack muddied it for a bit of mischief.Hopefully I'll get a bit more info on my Rudy from Paris to rule him out,I think I know someone who was starting in France when Rudy was going back to the lithographs.

I think we might all be forgetting the fact that it was 1949. Mick would not have been known in Dundee , nor was he famous. Even if he had that Dracula hair style back then , just roughing it up and a Tash would have been enough. No TV and no internet and only coverage in the Dundee Courier. It's easy for me to see how they got away with it.

By 1949 do you think Mick would even have worked at Dundee. I will check.

The Caird Hall only held 2000 fans. Relwyskow must have made his mind up that he could get away with a World Champ. Strange that he did not put a belt on him.

What a great story. As I say I will check for Mick's outings in Dundee before and after this event. No wonder Dale Martins were a bit uncomfortable on the bill I showed with Kidd as " Virtually a World Champ".

Hmmmmmm well I'm glad you did the big reveal Hack and not me.Expect major flack from The Sunday Post and denials from a couple of Kidd fans.I am amazed it was Mick according to old Jack,totally out of character and poses the question why,at the time he wasnt a fan of the promoter so why do him this major favour,certainly no benefit for dales who occasionally billed Kidd as world title contender.Be much more understandable if he'd done it for Dales.Mick himself told me he wrestled under three names.A rumour went round up north that Mick was wrestling as Dr Death I tend to think this rumour was fed by old Jack to northern based workers this was round about the time of the this is your life stunt pulled by Dales unfairly in my opinion Now the holy grail is a pic of Mick with long hair.Now back toy Rudy the arguing lightly heavy he had long brown hair zappata tash and had wrestled in Britain he was from Torrox in Spain and lived now in Paris and he ran a printers was he an inspiration and back to Mick would Steve Logan be a better fit well liked by the promoter and Kidd and looked the part.Still if Old Jack said it was Mick .

I have just read the Heritage Newsletter and that is a great story about George Kidd winning the world title from Mexican Rudi Quarez (Mick McManus). I had read years ago that Kidd had won the world title from a Mexican and it seemed unlikely to me that this would have really happened, as there were never any real close links between British and Mexican wrestling but I had no idea of the full story.

Years later promotors were still pulling similar tricks on us gullible fans as I saw Marty Jones defending his World Mid-Heavyweight title on TV in 1986 against a German called Bull Blitzer, who I found out years later was Steve Wright from Warrington. It was a great bout though, so as fans do we really care about being tricked. I actually enjoy it more, now I know how crafty the promotors were.

How he had the nerve to Kidd us all like that , I don't know , makes you wonder what other guff they dished out.

Incredible isn't it SaxonWolf? Thanks for not giving the game away.

What a fantastic story!

https://wrestlingheritage.wixsite.com/newsletter

I had changed it to Bkendo, 'onest. Done now.

You are taking my name in vain Anglo. It was not me !

While I am on this thread, I agree with a previous post, I also think that George Kidd was double jointed in some of his limbs, this enabled him to work out escapes that others couldn't do. However he needed his opponents' help by them loosening the hold sufficiently ,so he could make the escape.

Ha! Ha! Hurried phone calls tonight between Italy and the UK for an agreement to release this story. Back to the core of this topic of what we thought about George Kidd. Well, I only saw him on tv from the mid sixties so the limited experience of most here. But the fact that this was pro wrestling must surely mean that Kidd was only as good as opponents would allow. Yes, his moves were clever, well calculated (most have taken hours or weeks to work some of them out) but were a unique gimmick.

Never mind the Sunday Post, Bkendo1. We have decided to group together some of the excellent thinking from the above topic and to put it together into this Sunday's Heritage Newsletter.

We believe we have information to develop this saga very satisfyingly.

I wonder what you are if you are virtually a world champion. Are you a champ or not.

All letters of complaint to Anglo and hack C/o of the Sunday post.

Yes Anglo teased out is an excellent description rather you than me.

I have been corresponding with Hack about this. We have been sitting on a gem of information for about ten years and it seems to be being forced out now.

It's a whoppah of a story.

I am not trying to tease you with the wait. Just want to do the right thing with Hack here.

But you can see from the wording of the A-Z entry that we are aware of something very fishy here and we have a remarkable solution for you.

A bit more patience please and you will not be disappointed.

Everywhere you look , people are looking back a long way and writing a summary of his record and each time the facts are just a little out. The Rudi Quarez match at Dundee took place and was reported by the papers with some considerable build up for weeks up to the match in October 1949. But in the build up Quarez was mentioned by name only , not a drop of a profile or picture.

No problem with Scottish title and British in 1948 apparently from Jack Dempsey but the Euro title is clouded by a lack of dates and opponent.

That World title though seems to be just a set up and all worked from Dundee.

I agree Ron, something is amiss. Rudy Quarez doesn't seem to exist (apart from someone similar sounding who bkendo1 met in Paris in the early 70's), and a quick flick through The Mick McManus Book of Wrestling (in the George Kidd section, where George is interviewed), the man himself says he won the Scottish title in 1947, British in 1948 and European in 1949.

He then says he won the world title in February 1950, in Dundee, from Rene Ben Chemoul. No mention of Rudy Quarez.

I think this is turning out to be yet another exposure.

Imaginative promoting of the highest class in it's day , but it is no longer possible to fool the Heritage Community.

Belts , Masks , winning runs were invented almost out of thin air.

Brilliant stuff though.

To add to this , we have the story of Kidd winning the European title in Paris , well I have a link here written long after the event that claims Kidd actually won the European title from McManus and even toured Mexico in 1952 , well I don't think this made the papers.

Is it me or is all this just Tosh.

https://www.f4wonline.com/other-wrestling/case-george-kidd-wrestling-observer-hall-famer-293996

It couldn't be could it...... 1972 Paris met an ageing light heavy called Rudy Juarerez,he claimed to be well known in UK not to me he wasn't but he was gettin on a bit and think it was independents not joint,he came from an odd sounding town Torrox I presumed Spanish had a look of Johnny Foley but not got his moves.

So, who would have written this in the A-Z?

"...This alleged Mexican was the man the champion defeated by George Kidd on 25th October, 1949, to annexe the World Lightweight Championship for George. That seems to be the only recorded match for the Mexican. Strange.  Forum queries uncovered nothing. But we have, and shall tell more...."

Hack?, Anglo?, I would assume that this person was not from Mexico (maybe Spain?), and I guess that during the era we are talking about, no one would have any way of finding out who the World Lightweight Champion was anyway?

Almost all professional wrestling moves require the co-operation of the opponent.

Saw George in early - mid 60's Melwyn Riss Bernard Murray & Jon Cortez. Brilliant onthe mat skills [no rough stuff] but as other stated he went on too long. I believe he was totally double jointed

From the A-Z

"...Rudi Quarez

This alleged Mexican was the man the champion defeated by George Kidd on 25th October, 1949, to annexe the World Lightweight Championship for George. That seems to be the only recorded match for the Mexican. Strange.  Forum queries uncovered nothing. But we have, and shall tell more.

For now we will tell you that Kidd, up and against a more experienced opponent (which is true) went behind when the “Mexican” body slammed him and took the first fall in the fifth round.  Kidd won in the tenth round when  Quarez was unable to continue...."

So, it appears that Rudi Quarez never existed, and I assume that George Kidd bought, or somehow owned a belt that he awarded himself?, Was he also the promoter that night?

So who was "Rudi Quarez"?

Thanks for that Bernard,interesting opponent was Johnny Stead who I never met to my knowledge but a man I admired as a great trainer Bernard Murray said he was the very best.

I thought Larry Coulton was the real star in that bout , he made George look good, a lesser opponent could have really ended up with a bout that had shown George really struggling. I never got to see Johnny Stead and as far as I know, there's no footage of him in action, unless forum members know better.

When I first saw George Kidd, he seemed a superb wrestler.Had all the tricks, got out of every hold and into one of his own easily.

I have said before that the best match I ever saw was a 15 round draw (1-1) between Kidd and Johnny Stead for what turned out to be for Kidd's European Lightweight Title.( At the time when I posted this before, I thought it was for the World title.)

Johnny Stead at the time was British Lightweight Champion.

It was the first time that I had seen Kidd's rollup in a ball move. This brought him the first fall, but when he tried it again a few rounds later Stead countered and got the equalizer.

Of course at the time I was a raw teenager in love with the wrestling.

Subsequent views on the TV just showed up how worked these things were.

Stead retired too early and Kidd went on too long.