This topic has been edited to retain only relevant posts. Please stay on topic and do not make personal comments about other contributors.
leonard.frank1
8/08/2020
Hidden wrestling footage.
I know there’s certainly some wrestling video that hasn’t come to light as yet, but how much is actually known about or rumoured to be laying unloved on a dusty shelf somewhere?
Bartelli v Nagasaki?
Pallo v McManus
The infamous McManus v Peter Preston anomaly (it means oddity Matey Dave)
Some decent Hells Angels footage?
Maybe some Jim Hussey gems
I can dream can’t I.
ohtani's jacket
09/08/2020
The ITV Sports Archive has begun digitizing a lot of its footage. I'm not sure if they have any footage from the 50s, but they definitely have plenty of footage from the 60s. Acquiring footage from the archive is expensive. Pallo vs. McManus from Cup Final day exists. I haven't seen any evidence that the other matches are in circulation. I do know there is an Adrian Street match from the 60s out there.
leonard.frank1
09/08/2020
Those two sound awesome. Fingers crossed this stuff and more gets found and saved before the tapes disintegrate and become dust .
grahambrookjazz
09/08/2020
I recall attending a Bartelli/Nagasaki match in the early seventies from The Wryton Stadium, Bolton, which was being filmed for TV. On another TV taping from Wryton Stadium, I recall The Hell's Angels wrestling against the father/son team of Les Kellett/Dave Barrie and also recall seeing a TV encounter between Hell's Angels and Borg Twins which went cats.
I recall seeing three Jimmy Hussey bouts on TV towards the end of his career as he faced Sean Regan, Les Kellett and Ray Glendenning. The Glendenning encounter was from De Montfort Hall, Leicester, with Hussey losing in what I believe was his final TV appearance.
leonard.frank1
09/08/2020
Your memory is outstanding Mate. I struggle to remember what I had for dinner yesterday! I guess the question is did they wipe and re-use the tape, or does it lay somewhere just waiting for someone to find it and transfer it to digital. Not sure how much importance would be put on wrestling from 40 - 50 years ago or how many fan there are like us.
grahambrookjazz
09/08/2020
In my case it really is memory as I have thrown away much of my wrestling paraphernalia over the years, including posters and programmes from my own promotions. There are contributors on this site who have exact details of the TV tapings from this era who will be even more useful to you than I can ever be. Whether they come forward or not is a different matter.
The Ost
09/08/2020
The ITV Archive states they have wrestling footage from 1961 to 1988.
mateydave
09/08/2020
it might be worth noting that a lot of ITV archive material got destroyed by water in Perivale many moons ago. 16mm telerecording of the wrestling were syndicated all over the world by ITC. if it moved, somebody will show it.
(Post edited)
ohtani's jacket
10/08/2020
Trust me, the footage exists. The problem is the cost. If they start allowing people access to the digital archives, you will see more of the matches. If not, they will remain in the hands of private collectors. Personally, I would happily pay a monthly theme to have access to the digital archive, but ITV don't appear to be at that stage yet. The French are well ahead of them in providing access to their archival footage, hence all the footage that's popping up.
Hussey had some matches on TV in 1970 and '71. I am 100 percent sure those are in the archive. He had a lot of matches on TV in the late 60s and they definitely have a lot of footage from '67 onward, so there's a good chance that they have those too.
I would say they absolutely have the Hell's Angels matches from the late 60s and 70s as well. But at this stage it would cost a few hundred pounds to obtain them.
The best thing about the archives is that they have the master tapes. Most bouts were edited for TV, so you get the full bout. You also hear the pre-recording banter between Walton and his director, and the MC warming up the crowd. The occasional "off air" opinion from Walton too. I remember one match where he asks someone to get a drink for him, and another match where he comments on some woman who brings homemade gifts for the wrestlers.
Peter
11/08/2020
Do not understand why ITV is so reluctant to release what is available
mateydave
11/08/2020
because the chances are it is lost or been damaged......
ohtani's jacket
11/08/2020
They want to make money from it. Right now, they charge you an expensive fee for researching what they have in the archives (e.g. Hussey matches.) I believe they waive that fee if they find what you requested, but they still charge you a hefty fee for the matches. Even the basic duplication fee is expensive. I guess they feel like their archival material has a certain value as opposed to what they could earn from a massive subscription service. I really have no idea. I don't think their approach is particularly modern. But the footage hasn't been lost or damaged.
mateydave
11/08/2020
there has been a lot of damage to 16 mm telercordings and my lips are sealed as to what happened to many 2" quad tapes
SaxonWolf
11/08/2020
I feel sure I read that a few years ago, Vince McMahon of WWF/WWE fame tried to buy all the archive footage that ITV had and the prices was too high. It's not that he couldn't afford it, but that he didn't want to pay over the odds and be ripped off.
ohtani's jacket
11/08/2020
The WWF hoarding the footage and only releasing matches of old WWF wrestlers would have been the worst thing ever.
Mad Mac
12/08/2020
WWE wants outright ownership, but ITV wants to “license” it. That’s the impasse.
The Ost
12/08/2020
It's certainly the old-fashioned approach, as TV studios used to take.
An accessing fee and a digitising fee, adding up to more than most are willing to pay for. It's the same down here in NZ.
I agree the French are doing a good job of providing access to lots of their old footage, including wrestling.
Powerlock
12/08/2020
I can remember watching Mike Eagers in fact he was certainly a popular wrestler on tv but haven't been able to find any of his bouts , another wrestlers whose legacy is rotting away in ITV archives.
DjMask
13/08/2020
Prior to COVID The British Film Institue (BFI) archive seemed to have some ITV wrestling bouts available to view at their London HQ. One of which is the Rikki Starr-Steve Haggerty bout from 1973 which was shown in the short lived Thursday lunch time slot on ITV.
John M
13/08/2020
I really hope that some of these many missing older bouts do appear. There are so many that I would love to see (McManus v Pallo, Nagasaki v Howes, a tag match involving the Hells Angels etc). However, in the late 90's I was thinking that I would never again see any of the bouts that I had seen when I was young. The bouts that have already appeared and are available on YouTube or on DVD's are far more than I had hoped for in my wildest dreams. If some of these missing older bouts do appear it would be fantastic but we should be grateful for what we already have.
RON HISTORYO....Time Cop,
13/08/2020
Top of my list , Albert Wall.
Had some good bouts with Davies.
Peter
13/08/2020
Had a thread on here some years ago listing all the wrestlers with no matches on the internet. Subsequently the list has become shorter but still too long.Hope ITV will reduce the asking price or even show some of the black and white matches late at night
Powerlock
13/08/2020
Possibly the easiest way for ITV to make them available would be to make them available to download at a similar price to music tracks , this way they would generate money without too much effort and we could build up our collections gradually without bursting the bank. This would have a worldwide appeal to fans everywhere.
The Ost
13/08/2020
The footage might look better now than it did on those old TV sets.
mateydave
13/08/2020
lets be really controversial shall we. remember ITV is a business with shareholders. how much do you think it would cost to digitise a 20 minute bout factoring in staff costs etc.
if ITV was to put up a subscription service and make available how much would they charge. you have already seen what has happened with all the VHS off air recordings that were made. most have made their way onto youtube were you can view for free.
BUT and this is a very BIG BUT we have a situation of some making a living by selling DVD compilation of this recording which are pirate copies. they are illegal and just because you have paid for them does not make the DVDs you buy legal. the buyers are just as guilty as person infringing the copyright. both are committing a criminal offence
WHY SHOULD ITV GO TO EXPENSE OF DIGITISING SO SCURRILOUS TYPES CAN STEAL THE MATERIAL AND SELL COPIES ILLEGALLY
The Ost
13/08/2020
the footage can be embedded in a way that makes it difficult to download and then spread around. Or the version that can be downloaded is of much lower quality.
ohtani's jacket
13/08/2020
It's a matter of whether they want to make money off their footage (wrestling or otherwise.) We know they are digitizing the footage, but right now their focus is on licensing it for academic or commercial purposes. There are some private sales, but mostly that is their focus. Perhaps they don't see a market for a subscription service, or perhaps it's not cost effective. It's a small team (only a handful of people.) About five years ago, the Chicago Film Archive put a 100 or so matches on YouTube and recently people have been sponsoring additional uploads. I am sure people here would pay money to have the digitized footage put on a YouTube channel or offered through some other platform. I think the cheapest transfer option was 40 pounds per hour (plus expenses.) That's still a lot, but people could chip in. If you allow people to pay for access to the archive then yes, some folks will rip the matches and share them illegally, but the sponsorship method could work if they are willing to set up a platform.
leonard.frank1
13/08/2020
Scurrilous? Most of what he sells isn't even copyrighted, he's just a wrestling fan sharing what he owns and bearly covering his costs.
(post edited)
very simple on one level. there were no home recording equipment about at that time.. and it is only in recent years that stuff has been posted. check out how far back the first stuff was posted, In general times, not that long ago.
note how their recent attempt at producing wrestling shows have gone belly up.
Youtube has started to slowly clamp down on copyright material, so how would you react if one morning on waking up found all old British ITV wrestling had been removed leaving LDN and other companies there. It could happen. recently was given a program to edit which was recorded last Christmas. when it was upload Youtube removed the music.
Initially caused me problems as they complained blaming me until explained what happened.
Why are ITV so precious about black and white era matches but seem fine with 1971 onwards matches been available
I would type that I want to see a Joe Cornelius match, but if I did it would be the fourth time, or fifth, or six, or.......
there have been a couple of times I have been involved with achieving 35mm nitrate, the copyright can be a minefield. many who have a 35mm print/negative or 16mm falsely claim they own the copyright.
could somebody any links on the BFI site for wrestling videos, had a look but hit a brick wall, there was a link which did not work for pro wrestling in 1963.
the amusing outcome was I suddenly stumbled onto a film that have been trying to find which was of good quality and sharp. the link suddenly popped, so sometimes you may not find what you are looking for but find what you have been wanting to see for years
I don't know about ITV but when I first enquired about a copy of my 2 minute interview from 1969, I was told that the interview was from a nightly magazine programme called Nationwide and that many of these type of broadcasts, although recorded, were very often recorded over to save costs, Apparently back then no one thought there would be a demand for nostalgia!
How big an audience are we talking about here?, surely that is the acid test for any chance of a TV channel paying for old footage and broadcasting it?
I would wager that is is cheaper to buy "Championship Wrestling from Hollywood" or any other show that currently crops up on Freeview, and show that.
In reality, it shouldn't cost much at all, to get the old World of Sport footage. It was originally broadcast in an era where there were no video recorders, TV shows aired once, and if popular, were repeated. World of Sport was never repeated to my knowledge, it was shown "live" on a Saturday afternoon, and that was it. So the programme was made with a "use once" budget. It paid for itself with the amount of people tuning it (to use an old phrase!) and watching TV ads.
I can agree that there wouldn't be enough fans interested. I could also agree that some bouts might seem dated in comparison with current wrestling, not that any comparison would be necessary.
But I also think there just has to be a different sociological angle that makes this footage of interest. We are talking about the nation's most attended indoor sport and a tv spectacle that caused excitement and discussion nationwide, and was regularly discussed in the press, admittedly not the sports pages. It was also present in virtually every town in the UK on a live and regular basis.
True, it was hushed up, swept under the carpet, by sports journalists and the (jealous) BBC. But existed on an enormous scale.
That sweeping under the carpet eradicates a huge chunk of British sociological history. It disregards what filled minds and leisure time and accounted for some of the limited disposable income of a sizable chunk of the population.
B&W kitchen sink films are considered classics; grainy footage of Marciano, Sonny Liston and even The Brawl in Porthcawl continues to fascinate boxing fans; they still show Panorama's spaghetti harvest, even though the trick has been revealed. They show B&W reruns of the Sunday Palladium and The Avengers - all very dated but fascinating viewing.
There must be space for wrestling within this little lot.
Ignorant snobbery reigns amongst the tv people.
You've just reminded me of something Hack. Several years ago I bought a programme from the BBC and it came with a notice that it couldn't be played to a live audience unless it was in a school for the purpose of education. I suppose that could include evening classes for adults with various lessons such as how did George Kidd get out of a headlock or name every World lightweight championship defence Johnny Saint made! That should give us enough time to slip in a few Nagasaki highlights!!!
I've never needed to buy an ITV programme but as a commercial enterprise, I would imagine they would be far tougher than the Beeb and of course, it's ITV that we'd need for old wrestling programmes...
callsignmag
48m ago
My agreement (if I actually decide to buy the clip) says that I can show it in a private room to friends but not to put it online for public viewing. I would imagine that various versions of that text come with any clip that has to be dug out of a library...
Presumably the agreement also forbids copying or lending the footage?
I can see us all meeting in a "private room" to share the footage we have all bought privately! We could make a weekend of it if enough of us buy enough old footage.
Hi callsignmag. You have a valid point about some of the older matches would not be as interesting, But, bear in mind that the rules have been changed (or moves accepted)all of the time since they were introduced. Some of the moves seen now would not have been acceptable in earlier years.
The skill and technique of most of the older wrestlers was comparable to anything seen in the later years.
Only the extra mobility and use of the ropes differ so much.
My agreement (if I actually decide to buy the clip) says that I can show it in a private room to friends but not to put it online for public viewing. I would imagine that various versions of that text come with any clip that has to be dug out of a library...
Trouble is that if you buy any footage you can't share it as they make you sign an agreement not to, so my "friend" tells me....
Peter, I think the higher cost is because it isn't worth their while doing it with so little interest. I'm still waiting for a 1969 BBC clip of me giving a 2 minute interview (nothing to do with wrestling) on Nationwide, but because it's just me that wants it, the quoted price is into 3 figures...
If it is the case that not many fans would watch these black and white matches then the usual laws of economics seem to be turned on their heads. If there is low demand for a product the price is driven down. The reverse is apparently happening here with the cost getting higher
I think it more than likely ITV just doesn't think wrestling has enough fans that want to see fights from the 60s and that it isn't really worth their while bothering with them. In all honesty, many of the bouts I've seen from years gone by are nowhere near as good as today's stuff and other than remembering someone specifically for old times sake, I think many of the fights would now disappoint,,,.