It All Goes Back To The Times When Gotch Beat Hack

Here's a bit more fuel to add to the fire taken from "The Wrestler" February 1962 with an additional comment by the editor.

And by coincidence from the same copy of The Wrestler :-

I always found it amusing when being employed by William Hill well kind of Hurst Park,that no bets taken on pro wrestling,I'm also surprised that Snooker and darts attract gamblers.When I was frequently asked was it fixed early on as the 70s grew older people didn't ask,my reply was well if it is no one told me.Now I think back just how organised,disciplined was the joint cartel managing the ambitions and egos of both the workers and the promoters.

Vince didn't but there was and may still be betting available for the on some platforms very recently, it's a bit like betting on the Harlem Globetrotters really. Someone at WWE was leaking the results of the ppv before the event and it caused a bit of a stink at WWE, I don't know if anyone made a killing financially this way but it was embarrassing for Vince.

Are you guys telling me the games fixed,sorry I couldn't resist.

Entertaining though you may have become pack it in lads. It's only wrestling. Have a respectful discussion about the subject. You've both been around long enough to know the one thing we won't have are personal comments, and you're both guilty there.

It's like Jim Breaks versus Sid Cooper

Seems to us like both are valid viewpoints that should be respected. So let's just continue the interesting aspects of this discussion.

-----Shikat beat Jim Londos in 1929 to become NBA (wrestling division) champion then lost to Londos in the rematch (on Youtube) a year later. -----

1929 Pennsylvania SAC & New York SAC - ONLY.

1930. NATIONAL BOXING ASSOCIATION (31 STATES).

-----Steinke got proclaimed champion by the NYSAC in 1919 then promptly got defeated by Joe Stecher in Jan 1920-----

NEW YORK TIMES, JUNE 27, 1971

CHICAGO, June 26 (AP)— Hans Steinke, a famed professional wrestler through the twenties and, thirties, died today of Iung cancer. He was 78 years old. Mr. Steinke began his career in Germany, where he was born, and won renown as "The German Oak."

He came to this country in 1923 and wrestled until his retirement in 1940.

Mr. Steinke appeared in a dozen or so movies as a supporting actor. In recent years he was in the cement‐contracting business. He is survived by, his widow, Betty, and a daughter, Mrs. Anne‐Marie Rassilyer.

The NWAssociation was an association of State Athletic Comissions, unlike like the NWAlliance which was an association (actually a cartel) of promoters. The lineage from O'Mahony's win of the Boston AWA title from Ed Don George 30th July 1935 up until NWAlliance champion Orville Brown's loss of his title by default to NWAssociation champion Lou Thesz on 25th November 1949 - except for a period in 1937-1939 during which promoter Tom Packs recognised the Boston AWA title after the NWAssociation refused to recognise Everett Marshall's loss to Lou Thesz in what was billed as a title unification match but later changed his mind during next Boston AWA champion Steve Casey's title reign - was retrospectively adopted for the NWAlliance for tracing its lineage back to Hack's 1905 win over Jenkins.

Behind the scenes the NWAssociation continued as a legit thorn in the side of promoters until its abandon in September 1980. Its control over promoter, referee and wrestler liceneses was a particular problem - Vince McMahon Sr had to smuggle WWWF champion and recent heart attack victim Buddy Rogers past their appointed ringside doctor to get him into the ring to job his title to Bruno Sammartino in 48 seconds in 1963.

Wladek Zybysko's win over Lewis mk2 was for the "Olin lineage" - Stecher had been declared the loser in a match against John Olin (Johan Olin from Finland) in 1916 when he refused to continue after the match degenerated into a ringside brawl. At the time, the claim of victory by Olin was largely ignore and Stecher went on to lose his title to Caddock in 1917. However after Lewis mk2 beat Olin, he proclaimed himself champion. To drum up interest, he traded the title back and forth with Wladek, but seems to have lost interest during Zybysko's second reign - Stecher would beat him for his claim and unify it with his own splinter claim stemming from when he was briefly proclaimed champion after Caddock was presumed dead after going MIA in the final months of WWI. Lewis meanwhile would repeat the lose-regain storlyine with the fully re-unified title with Wladek's brother Stanislaus in the early 1920s.

Lou Thesz recalled Wladek as definitely the less talented of the two Zybysko Brothers and with an ego disproportionate to his ability. Wladek famously refused to draw one night against legendary "barnstomer" (and general loveable rogue) Fred Grubmier, a much lighter man. Wladek cut a promo backstage on Grubmier declaring he would "CROSH HIM LIKE A GRAPE" and then stormed to the ring. Grubmier went out and got two straight falls in record time. Afterwards when Wladek tried to apologise to Grubmier backstage, declaring that "you ARE a great wrestler!" Grubmier reportedly replied "Naww, I ain't - but you ain't either!"

Shikat beat Jim Londos in 1929 to become NBA (wrestling division) champion then lost to Londos in the rematch (on Youtube) a year later. In 1936, after several years of backstage grievances (including a break-in at his home by thugs hired by one promoter) he shot on tanker O'Mahoney to take the unified NWAssociation/Boston AWA title then put it up for auction among promoters. He then duly jobbed the title to the winning bidder's chosen champion, Armenian-American Arteen Ekizian who wrestled under the Arab heel gimmick of Ali Baba. The Boston AWA later withdrew from this and reinstated O'Mahonney. The NWAssociation had Baba job to the more serious Everett Marshall at the first available opportunity. Afterwards this led to a longstanding taboo on putting World titles on gimmick wrestlers, especially the NWAlliance title.

Steinke got proclaimed champion by the NYSAC in 1919 then promptly got defeated by Joe Stecher in Jan 1920 as a warmup for the famous filmed Earl Caddock return match days later. If Stecher was indeed uindergoing a manic episode in that second bout, perhaps the schedule of back-to-back title unifiers was a contributing cause.

For those who don't know them, this is Hans Steinke and Dick Shikat, and you can see what I mean about these men looking like they would not seem out of place in a modern wrestling show, this was in the pre-steroids days.

All interesting stuff! I have read a lot of the research by Steve Yohe, especially his huge volume of work on the life story of Ed "Strangler" Lewis. This period of time is interesting because it was the "Wild West" (almost literally!), with different promoters trying to get one over on another promoter. There were (apparently) a few genuine double crosses, and that is interesting as well.

It seems that each promoter had at least one wrestler on his books, who was "marketable", regardless of how talented they were, and a number of others who were genuine wrestlers.

The interesting ones (or at least two of them) for me, were the German's, Dick Shikat and Johannes (Hans) Steinke. Both were feared grapplers, and I am going to try and find out (when I have the time), what their background was, who trained them, because they appear to be legitimate wrestlers, who towed the line, for money, but could double cross just about anyone, if they had a mind to do that. Shikat famously double crossed O'Mahoney. Both were from Greco-Roman backgrounds, Toots Mondt had a hand in training Shikat in Catch Wrestling (I think) and both were very big men, especially in that era. They would not look out of place in a modern ring.

Sorry to say that Dave, I gave up, and I am not going to comment or reply anymore to any of your "wiki-storylines", "shoots", "titles" in the 1800s America etc. non-existing stuff, none of this is of my interest, neither it makes any sense to me. We speak different languages, and that's totally fine.

By the way, my original post and this whole thread was supposed to be about TECHNICAL aspect of the pro wrestling matches, if you noticed, not about "titles". I don't care who "won", I care about the throws and techniques they used and practiced back in a day.

>hey gave him Jenkins "title" They didn't. Jenkins kept his (lesser) title. Neither that nor Hack's 1905 European GR tournament win were on the line, only the new World championship.

Two weeks after Jenkins lost to Hack, he absolutely destroyed Gotch to succesfully defend the American title, thus establishing Hack and Jenkins as the higher and lower title holders respectively.

After that match, the World and American titles became the classic World/Regional title structure as later replicated in such forms as World/US (numerous NWA territories especially JCP/WCW) World/Intercontinental (WWF) World/European/British (Mountevans Rules) etc etc etc.

Mostly the American title was used for grooming the next big World champion (Gotch, Cutler, Lewis Mk2)

Dave, re Stecher etc, have a look at my another recent post its called - WRESTLING TO A FINNISH.

The thing is, Gotch and American pro wrestling needed an impact from the outside, because internal sources in the heavyweight class were poor. Jenkins stopped caring for pro wrestling around that time, Beell wasn't even heavyweight. That's how we have hordes of foreigners coming to the US. Victories over those "foreigners" made Gotch a star in America. First foreigner, of course it had to be Hack, first of all he already was a "visitor" in America once, when they gave him Jenkins "title" but he would not stay and work here, that was original intention on giving him title, he would have to defend his title against Gotch in 1905, shortly after his victory over Jenkins, but that didn't happen he and local bosses couldn't agree upon the moneyz, so he was back home, Gotch beat Jenkins and became a title holder, whatever that title was I have no idea. American or World or Universe, simply no idea. But in 1907-08 situation was different at around that time Gotch wasn't at his peak of popularity, they needed impact like I said. That impact was Gotch v Hack 1908 match. Plus right before the match literally one month before it, Gotch opposition tried to double-cross his claims, but he was smart enough NOT TO SHOW UP for the title defense, they claimed the title for Beell in Feb 1908 once again...for Gotch NO DEFENSE. But likely Gotch simply PAID them to quit those claims. And we never heard about that ever again.

>Typical pro wrestling "bla-bla-bla-land" ballyhoo

The reported inside story of Gotch/Hack II didn't do the business any good like ballyhoo is supposed to. It just exposed the business and triggered a downturn that only ended in 1920 when Lewis mk2 had all teh branches of Stecher's championship as endorsed and challenged by Gotch five years earlier.

Let's put it that way, there was no such a thing as 'Gotch did, or Gotch didn't' there was a SCRIPT an actual SCENARIO, OF WHAT, WHEN, AND HOW EACH OF THE PARTICIPANTS HAVE TO DO WHAT THE PAPER SAYS, they worked together, SUCCESS of pro wrestling match is a TEAM EFFORT, ability to SELL CROWDS (that is what the job was and still is about) is a TEAM EFFORT. Once and forever.

----The story with Gotch-Hack 2 was that someone (a retired fiftysomething Ad Santel later claimed to a young Lou Thesz that it was him) infiltrated Hack's training camp and injured his knee during sparring. Gotch's camp then contacted Hack's to say that they knew about the injury but offered to - as close as I recall the original wording "concede one fall and otherwise carry him to a respectable finish." Hack agreed only for Gotch to get in the ring and trash him two straight.----

Typical pro wrestling "bla-bla-bla-land" ballyhoo, omg 'INFILTRATED HACKS CAMP', what kind of camp was it I wonder, are we talking about WW1 or WW2, NOPE SIR we are talking about a PRO WRESTLING MATCH, like seriously who on EARTH WOULD EVER consider believing this? This whole stuff was for people TO BELIEVE AND BET! Those guys were FOOLING NAIVE PEOPLE AROUND, THAT IS ALL IT WAS BACK THEN. And now hundred plus years later we still talk about this, I simply cannot believe it.

-----Gotch-Hack I (1908) is unusual in that even arch sceptic Steve Yohe concedes it might have been a shoot, similar to how Ali-Inoki in 1976 ended up as a shoot through the two camps being unable to agree a mutually satisfactory finish.----

If it was a genuine contest (AND I AM LAUGHING EVEN AT SAYING THAT LOUDLY), then Gotch was not a CAPABLE wrestler, OR not a wrestler at all because he apparently could not pin in catch-as-catch-can wrestling (THAT'S HOW YOU WIN IN CATCH WRESTLING) a person who was A LONG RETIRED GRECO-ROMAN WRESTLER, and a BODYBUILDER. And if he was a "no way wrestler" then how on Earth people would want to go watch him, BET ON HIM, if he didn't show any abilities in wrestling whatsoever, and some people (hahaha) even still talk about him hundred years after his death. All comical. Let's keep it all simple, and NOT fantasize - IT WAS A JOB HEAD TO TOE, A TO Z.

Gotch liked to make his fellow workers look like rubbish and himself look glorious. He was, negatively speaking, the Hulk Hogan/Shawn Michaels of his day in that respect Regardless of what, if any booking was made for Gotch/Zybyskio, that was what was at work in that first fall.

The story with Gotch-Hack 2 was that someone (a retired fiftysomething Ad Santel later claimed to a young Lou Thesz that it was him) infiltrated Hack's training camp and injured his knee during sparring. Gotch's camp then contacted Hack's to say that they knew about the injury but offered to - as close as I recall the original wording "concede one fall and otherwise carry him to a respectable finish." Hack agreed only for Gotch to get in the ring and trash him two straight.

Gotch-Hack I (1908) is unusual in that even arch sceptic Steve Yohe concedes it might have been a shoot, similar to how Ali-Inoki in 1976 ended up as a shoot through the two camps being unable to agree a mutually satisfactory finish.

Gotch's first American title win smacks of the feel of modern day booking. Although Gotch, dirty tricks and all, was not a heel in America (just like Diego Maradonna was a national hero in Argentina) it feels like a heel doing provocative tricks to a Wayne Bridges type surly blue-eye who eventually retaliates with closed fist punches and gets DQd (like when Tony StClair went bezerk in that Kendo tag match from 1987).

It's a pity there is no audio recording of Jenkins saying the words "Gotch Weren't No Gent" - if it existed it would be the earliest surviving pro wrestling "promo" ever, 26 years ahead of Jim Londos's 1930 in-ring victory speech after beating Shikat (the earliest wrestler interview on film)

Well, that's a new one to me, they do say you learn something new everyday. Sort of make's sense Ruslan as Hackenschmidt had been champion for so long he may not have had the desire to continue. You've definitely made me think outside the box! There's nothing like a bit of controversy to make publicity and this is wrestling after all. Cheers Ruslan.

And yes Zby also did a GREAT JOB. Just like everyone else did. IT'S A JOB.

So do you think both Hackenschmidt and Jenkins were lying also Ruslan (nothing's impossible).

PROS LOVE (ALL IN CAPITALS L O V E!) TO EXAGGERATE, hahahah!

I’m not so sure about the “let’s not demonize Gotch” comment. Gotch obviously had the talent to become a champion but it could be disputed by at what means he defeated his opposition. Which ever way Gotch defeated Hackneschmidt (twice) it obviously affected the Russian Lion to an extent that Hack’s heart was no longer in the game. Many a champion as underestimated an opponent and have fallen, that may have been the case with Hackenschmidt. Wikipedia isn’t 100% fact reliable and can be altered by contributors at any stage. Was Gotch a great champion though. His record would say yes but some observations and comments by opponents and competitors would say the opposite. Much like Bert Assirati (described by Billy Robinson as a sadist and a masochist) Gotch is described as having a cruel streak, inflicting more pain than required upon his opponents and using any method to win. So are these comments true, or just disgruntled comments from bad losers and jealous competitors.

Gotch's whole deal was not making his opponents look good. Even if they had agreed to a competitive match beforehand. History has shown it works for some wrestlers, and not for others. It worked for Gotch. And his legacy.

Gotch sounds a smashing bloke, he used shenanigans against both Hackenschmidt and Jenkins to gain victories. Hardly the ideal role model to have as a champion.

Jenkins was the reigning American Heavyweight champion. He beat Dan McLeod in 1901 then suffered a controversial DQ loss to Gotch in 1903 after Gotch used every foul imaginable and Jenkins retaliated with a closed fist punch (Afterwards, Jenkins cut a promo for journalists in which he reportedly said "Gotch Weren't No Gent". Jenckins got his revenge in 1904.

Jenkins' American title was not on the tline in the World title match against Hackenschmdt, the 1905 winner of the the annual European Greco Roman Championships (first won by Paul Pons in 1898.) Jenkins and Hack, the top wrestlers of America and Europe respectively were competing for a higher prize. American promoters liked to go on more abou Gotch because he was American (and had an easier name to write than Hackenschmidt.)

The idea that Gotch's 1908 World title win was in 1906 and that his December 1906 American title loss/regain with Beel was for the World title used to pop up in Pro Wrestling Illustrated and its sister publications (Fred Beel was never World Champion, it bears riterating. Gotch had won the American title back from Jenkins earlier in 1906 and it was this title used in the Beel storyline.)

Dave, of course you are right, but just for you, I decided to share this document, its an official Paul Bowser's AWA of Boston, MA programme, and this is exactly the same programme that was used by both NWAssn and later by NWAlliance and was continued to be used by AWA of Boston, MA till Frank Sexton retired their title. You see this historical document is "full of..." yes, mistakes, but for the fans all over US it was an absolute undisputable truth. The funniest is that "Gotch apparently beat Hack in 1905"!!! Hahaha. But that's not all. In fact in 1905 after Hack beat Jenkins, he was back to the UK so technically he didn't defend his championship (whatever it was) in the US and Gotch in fact beat Jenkins in 1905. So technically in 1908...you know what I mean, hahahaha.

Interesting detail is that they try to avoid "won" and instead they prefer "recognized". Why? Good question.

The thing is Jenkins was NOT world champion, he was American champion in American style catch-as-catch-can, that stands for - they recognized pinning falls only, very opposite to England where besides pinning falls they recognized flying falls as well. So to speak they prefer not even calling it catch, and go into further details, but instead just say - recognized first world pro wrestling champion.

"It All Goes Back" to Hackenschmidt's two staight falls win over American Heavyweight Champion Tom Jenkins at MSG, NYC, USA on 4th May 1905. Almost all major league American versions of the World Heavyweight championship from the 1920s to the 2010s trace their roots the title Hack won that night 116 years ago - in particular the NWA claimed that match as the moment of creation of the NWA World title.

HACK v MADRALI 1906 CATCH-AS-CATCH-CAN RULES.

Below are comments by Bulldog Bill Garnon about "Hack" taken from issue 185 of Ringsport wrestling magazine.

Again from Ringsport issue 216 a short piece by the editor Evan R. Treharne.

Hi Ruslan, There are a couple of videos floating around Youtube about George Hackenschmidt taken from a couple of series about strongmen. Some of the contributors stated that Gotch cheated to defeat Hack. In so much that Gotch covered himself in oil prior to both contests which obviously meant Hack could not easily place a hold or grip upon Gotch. It was also stated that Gotch fouled Hack continuously during their 2 contests which was ignored by biased referees.

According to the show the second contest should have been postponed as Hack was not 100% but he went along with it as one of the events investors (a friend of Hack) would have been ruined if Hack had pulled out. All in all George Hackenschmidt appeared to be a true gentleman who just accepted his losses.