It All Goes Back To The Times When Gotch Beat Hack

Here's a bit more fuel to add to the fire taken from "The Wrestler" February 1962 with an additional comment by the editor.

And by coincidence from the same copy of The Wrestler :-

I always found it amusing when being employed by William Hill well kind of Hurst Park,that no bets taken on pro wrestling,I'm also surprised that Snooker and darts attract gamblers.When I was frequently asked was it fixed early on as the 70s grew older people didn't ask,my reply was well if it is no one told me.Now I think back just how organised,disciplined was the joint cartel managing the ambitions and egos of both the workers and the promoters.

Vince didn't but there was and may still be betting available for the on some platforms very recently, it's a bit like betting on the Harlem Globetrotters really. Someone at WWE was leaking the results of the ppv before the event and it caused a bit of a stink at WWE, I don't know if anyone made a killing financially this way but it was embarrassing for Vince.

Are you guys telling me the games fixed,sorry I couldn't resist.

Entertaining though you may have become pack it in lads. It's only wrestling. Have a respectful discussion about the subject. You've both been around long enough to know the one thing we won't have are personal comments, and you're both guilty there.

It's like Jim Breaks versus Sid Cooper

Seems to us like both are valid viewpoints that should be respected. So let's just continue the interesting aspects of this discussion.

-----Shikat beat Jim Londos in 1929 to become NBA (wrestling division) champion then lost to Londos in the rematch (on Youtube) a year later. -----

1929 Pennsylvania SAC & New York SAC - ONLY.

1930. NATIONAL BOXING ASSOCIATION (31 STATES).

-----Steinke got proclaimed champion by the NYSAC in 1919 then promptly got defeated by Joe Stecher in Jan 1920-----

NEW YORK TIMES, JUNE 27, 1971

CHICAGO, June 26 (AP)— Hans Steinke, a famed professional wrestler through the twenties and, thirties, died today of Iung cancer. He was 78 years old. Mr. Steinke began his career in Germany, where he was born, and won renown as "The German Oak."

He came to this country in 1923 and wrestled until his retirement in 1940.

Mr. Steinke appeared in a dozen or so movies as a supporting actor. In recent years he was in the cement‐contracting business. He is survived by, his widow, Betty, and a daughter, Mrs. Anne‐Marie Rassilyer.

The NWAssociation was an association of State Athletic Comissions, unlike like the NWAlliance which was an association (actually a cartel) of promoters. The lineage from O'Mahony's win of the Boston AWA title from Ed Don George 30th July 1935 up until NWAlliance champion Orville Brown's loss of his title by default to NWAssociation champion Lou Thesz on 25th November 1949 - except for a period in 1937-1939 during which promoter Tom Packs recognised the Boston AWA title after the NWAssociation refused to recognise Everett Marshall's loss to Lou Thesz in what was billed as a title unification match but later changed his mind during next Boston AWA champion Steve Casey's title reign - was retrospectively adopted for the NWAlliance for tracing its lineage back to Hack's 1905 win over Jenkins.

Behind the scenes the NWAssociation continued as a legit thorn in the side of promoters until its abandon in September 1980. Its control over promoter, referee and wrestler liceneses was a particular problem - Vince McMahon Sr had to smuggle WWWF champion and recent heart attack victim Buddy Rogers past their appointed ringside doctor to get him into the ring to job his title to Bruno Sammartino in 48 seconds in 1963.

Wladek Zybysko's win over Lewis mk2 was for the "Olin lineage" - Stecher had been declared the loser in a match against John Olin (Johan Olin from Finland) in 1916 when he refused to continue after the match degenerated into a ringside brawl. At the time, the claim of victory by Olin was largely ignore and Stecher went on to lose his title to Caddock in 1917. However after Lewis mk2 beat Olin, he proclaimed himself champion. To drum up interest, he traded the title back and forth with Wladek, but seems to have lost interest during Zybysko's second reign - Stecher would beat him for his claim and unify it with his own splinter claim stemming from when he was briefly proclaimed champion after Caddock was presumed dead after going MIA in the final months of WWI. Lewis meanwhile would repeat the lose-regain storlyine with the fully re-unified title with Wladek's brother Stanislaus in the early 1920s.

Lou Thesz recalled Wladek as definitely the less talented of the two Zybysko Brothers and with an ego disproportionate to his ability. Wladek famously refused to draw one night against legendary "barnstomer" (and general loveable rogue) Fred Grubmier, a much lighter man. Wladek cut a promo backstage on Grubmier declaring he would "CROSH HIM LIKE A GRAPE" and then stormed to the ring. Grubmier went out and got two straight falls in record time. Afterwards when Wladek tried to apologise to Grubmier backstage, declaring that "you ARE a great wrestler!" Grubmier reportedly replied "Naww, I ain't - but you ain't either!"

Shikat beat Jim Londos in 1929 to become NBA (wrestling division) champion then lost to Londos in the rematch (on Youtube) a year later. In 1936, after several years of backstage grievances (including a break-in at his home by thugs hired by one promoter) he shot on tanker O'Mahoney to take the unified NWAssociation/Boston AWA title then put it up for auction among promoters. He then duly jobbed the title to the winning bidder's chosen champion, Armenian-American Arteen Ekizian who wrestled under the Arab heel gimmick of Ali Baba. The Boston AWA later withdrew from this and reinstated O'Mahonney. The NWAssociation had Baba job to the more serious Everett Marshall at the first available opportunity. Afterwards this led to a longstanding taboo on putting World titles on gimmick wrestlers, especially the NWAlliance title.

Steinke got proclaimed champion by the NYSAC in 1919 then promptly got defeated by Joe Stecher in Jan 1920 as a warmup for the famous filmed Earl Caddock return match days later. If Stecher was indeed uindergoing a manic episode in that second bout, perhaps the schedule of back-to-back title unifiers was a contributing cause.

For those who don't know them, this is Hans Steinke and Dick Shikat, and you can see what I mean about these men looking like they would not seem out of place in a modern wrestling show, this was in the pre-steroids days.

All interesting stuff! I have read a lot of the research by Steve Yohe, especially his huge volume of work on the life story of Ed "Strangler" Lewis. This period of time is interesting because it was the "Wild West" (almost literally!), with different promoters trying to get one over on another promoter. There were (apparently) a few genuine double crosses, and that is interesting as well.

It seems that each promoter had at least one wrestler on his books, who was "marketable", regardless of how talented they were, and a number of others who were genuine wrestlers.

The interesting ones (or at least two of them) for me, were the German's, Dick Shikat and Johannes (Hans) Steinke. Both were feared grapplers, and I am going to try and find out (when I have the time), what their background was, who trained them, because they appear to be legitimate wrestlers, who towed the line, for money, but could double cross just about anyone, if they had a mind to do that. Shikat famously double crossed O'Mahoney. Both were from Greco-Roman backgrounds, Toots Mondt had a hand in training Shikat in Catch Wrestling (I think) and both were very big men, especially in that era. They would not look out of place in a modern ring.

Sorry to say that Dave, I gave up, and I am not going to comment or reply anymore to any of your "wiki-storylines", "shoots", "titles" in the 1800s America etc. non-existing stuff, none of this is of my interest, neither it makes any sense to me. We speak different languages, and that's totally fine.

By the way, my original post and this whole thread was supposed to be about TECHNICAL aspect of the pro wrestling matches, if you noticed, not about "titles". I don't care who "won", I care about the throws and techniques they used and practiced back in a day.

>hey gave him Jenkins "title" They didn't. Jenkins kept his (lesser) title. Neither that nor Hack's 1905 European GR tournament win were on the line, only the new World championship.

Two weeks after Jenkins lost to Hack, he absolutely destroyed Gotch to succesfully defend the American title, thus establishing Hack and Jenkins as the higher and lower title holders respectively.

After that match, the World and American titles became the classic World/Regional title structure as later replicated in such forms as World/US (numerous NWA territories especially JCP/WCW) World/Intercontinental (WWF) World/European/British (Mountevans Rules) etc etc etc.

Mostly the American title was used for grooming the next big World champion (Gotch, Cutler, Lewis Mk2)

Dave, re Stecher etc, have a look at my another recent post its called - WRESTLING TO A FINNISH.

The thing is, Gotch and American pro wrestling needed an impact from the outside, because internal sources in the heavyweight class were poor. Jenkins stopped caring for pro wrestling around that time, Beell wasn't even heavyweight. That's how we have hordes of foreigners coming to the US. Victories over those "foreigners" made Gotch a star in America. First foreigner, of course it had to be Hack, first of all he already was a "visitor" in America once, when they gave him Jenkins "title" but he would not stay and work here, that was original intention on giving him title, he would have to defend his title against Gotch in 1905, shortly after his victory over Jenkins, but that didn't happen he and local bosses couldn't agree upon the moneyz, so he was back home, Gotch beat Jenkins and became a title holder, whatever that title was I have no idea. American or World or Universe, simply no idea. But in 1907-08 situation was different at around that time Gotch wasn't at his peak of popularity, they needed impact like I said. That impact was Gotch v Hack 1908 match. Plus right before the match literally one month before it, Gotch opposition tried to double-cross his claims, but he was smart enough NOT TO SHOW UP for the title defense, they claimed the title for Beell in Feb 1908 once again...for Gotch NO DEFENSE. But likely Gotch simply PAID them to quit those claims. And we never heard about that ever again.

>Typical pro wrestling "bla-bla-bla-land" ballyhoo

The reported inside story of Gotch/Hack II didn't do the business any good like ballyhoo is supposed to. It just exposed the business and triggered a downturn that only ended in 1920 when Lewis mk2 had all teh branches of Stecher's championship as endorsed and challenged by Gotch five years earlier.