The Mal Sanders topic has drifted off topic with the issue raised of wrestlers drifting away from Joint Promotions, a suggestion that the retirement of Mick McManus may have been a factor.
A flow between Joint and the independents had always been common, there are few Joint wrestlers that didn't work for the independents at one time or another. This was often at the start of their career, where the independents were a good training ground, or towards the end of their careers when they may have not wanted to travel so much, or simply that Joint were no longer offering enough work. Some, think Kidd, Capelli, Bartelli, D'Orazio, Mitchell, made the journey to the independents at their peak, only to return later.
But things did seem to change in the late 1970s and into the 1980s, when the flow of wrestlers from Joint Promotions to the independents became a tsunami.
I think the reasons were more complex than the retirement of one wrestler. Was the writing on the wall? Was it a case of leaving a sinking ship? Was it all about money? Was there any place for loyalty? Loyalty to whom?
What do others think the factors were that contributed to this.
The name Crabtree was all over wrestling during the exodus, with Shirley topping bills, Brian trying to steal the spotlight as a referee, and Max watching the purse strings, regular attendees knew this and like so many of the wrestlers eventually moved onto pastures new due to the predictability and staleness of the product barring the odd bout and the unwillingness of Max to update the product. I can remember going to a show in the late 1980s and Max playing Mrs Mills and Max Bygraves tapes during the interval, everything about the sparsely attended show screamed behind the times.
I left the sinking ship in 1978. Right from the start I only went if I thought the bill was a good one. I did a lot of halls though , and I would never admit now , the wrestlers that I could not be bothered with at that time.
The quality of the performance was just not as good as it had been ten years earlier and that is despite some great new wrestlers who had great careers.
By the time Belle Vue closed I never considered it and I think Bolton the same year.
I went to an exhibition , Ideal Homes , I think , and Belle Vue had gone.
And at that time it was all "Just Wrestling" to me. I had no idea of all this Brian Dixon option etc.
My learning of the industry has come much later when I joined Heritage about 15 years back.
The stories of Max’ frugality are legendary, such as religiously driving the van at 55 to save petrol and John Quinn being ready to kill him at Wembley over a derisory payoff.
In this internet age, we now have a better “grasp” of the structure of the business back then. In the early 80s, the only “yardstick” we had was who was disappearing from our TV screens, and it was major names: Saint, Rocco, Bridges, Nagasaki, St. Clair, Jordan, to name but a few.
Adrian Street said that he made more money by leaving Joint and going with Jackie Pallo, for working less dates, or something like that. The Dynamite Kid story (below) was similar, where Max stiffed DK on a pay off, by saying something like "that's a lot of money for a young lad", without considering that, despite his young age, Dynamite Kid was putting bums on seats and bringing punters (and money) in.
I think Kendo and Rocco made more money by going with Brian Dixon, and others followed suit.
Sorry to say you have misunderstood Anglo Italian. Don't feel flattered because this topic is not a continuation of your McManus comments on the Mal Sanders thread. True, the suggestion that McManus could have caused some to leave sparked the idea, but this flow had started before the 1980s, though as I ageed it did become a tsunami. This is definitely not another McManus thread.
As you often reprimand others (myself included) not to say we are speaking for others maybe you would like to reconsider your final paragraph. Crabtree may have been low profile for you, not necessarily everyone.
Thank you everyone else for comments.
I guess money is always going to be the bottom line
Great story, Powerlock.
Reading the Dynamite Kid book he said that Max was mean money wise, he pulled a double when some one didn't turn up as Max said he'd see him right, he opened his pay packet and it had an extra pound note in it. It had to be Max driving wrestlers away with being as tight as a fishes arse money wise. Max telling Dynamite that £12 a night was good money. You have to wonder if anyone else was in on the meagre paypackets at head office or was it just Max.
This used to be a happy place. Now seems like someone wants to turn everything into Mick McManus. I didn't see anything in the op about this being about McManus. So it seems other comments don't count and I shouldn't have mentioned Mike Judd.. Someone welcomes comments if they agree with him, and want to talk to McManus. Everybody else keep out. Now I'll be in the AI firing line. All just a bit personal and a shame.
Your comment is an anachronism, Hack. Mike Judd disappeared mid-seventies. He is what you would call an irrelevance in this context.
When I raised this subject at the weekend - I am flattered that you have turned it into a dedicated topic, thank you, Hack - I was focused on the early eighties, when McManus stopped wrestling. The discussion is why early eighties names such as Mal sanders and Mark Rocco should have left Joint Promotions.
We have all become very aware of Max Crabtree in the internet years. But from the fans' perspective, my impression is that he had a low to zero profile in the seventies. We were influenced by the names on corner posts and seconds' jerseys as far as promoters were concerned.
There has been a lot of talk over the years that money was a factor, as Powerlock says, and my memory of the Pallo book is that Mark is correct in saying that Mike Judd in the Dale Martin office was a factor.
Ray is no doubt spot on that there was complex issues, centering around Max Crabtree taking over running each of the Joint Promotions members in the 1970s. Crabtree was a Marmite character and his business practices surely played a big part. Keep the comments coming folks.
With the launch of Channel Four Wales in 1982 and Screensport three years later you could be with an Independent and still get on TV
It might be better to ask why so many wrestlers stayed with Joint in the first place? It was a cartel of course but one that for a long time had all of the appearance of a governing body. The ME Rules, the belts, "That Photo", the RAH trophy, the air of legitimacy. All of that plus regular work and the chance to get on TV must have had a certain appeal. Nothing lasts forever and eventually everything that made Joint different just faded or became irrelevant. At least that is how I remember it.
In his book Pallo said that the way Mike Judd was running Dale Martin's office was a big reason he left.
I remember reading that All Star were offering better money than joint, also you could get more regular work as All Star and others were increasing their dates and Joint dates were diminishing.