Mike Marino Titles. 1950s-60s-70s.

Forget about the actual belts for a moment Bernard. Well, we rarely saw them. Think about the titles.

I don't like doubting your memory, which gives us all so much enjoyment, but I think The Ost and myself have demonstrated the World title Norman held when you knew him was called the Junior Heavyweight title.

It was a surprise to me too, as Kent and The Wrestler always referred to Norman as the former World Mod Heavyweight Champ, conveniently forgetting the Junior Heavyweight label.

Norman lost his title to Mike Marino. Somewhere along the way the World Junior Heavyweight title became the World Mid Heavyweight title.

Marino then lost the World Mid Heavyweight Title to Norman Walsh at Middlesbrough on 22nd July, 1961.

As to what the belt looked like. I've no blooming idea.

far be it for me of being a cynical old codger, but considering mr harrison's position within, just how many of his titles did he give himself

You are confusing me Ruslan.

The belts on page 1 of this thread are not the belt that Walsh is wearing in the A-Z.

Which one are you saying is the World Junior Heavyweight belt please?

1957 & 1958 cards with Walsh billed as World Jr Heavy champ:

In January of 1959, in London, they didn't bill him as any kind of champion (which doesn't confirm anything, but just shows how difficult it can be to track these things):

And if you go into the other topic ("between lt hv & hvy") we can see Walsh being billed as Mid Heavy champ from at least the start of April of that year.

Here we have the Jan 3, 1955 card where Walsh won the title from Dai Sullivan:

From May of that year, a rematch:

And in July, a KO tournament with the winner to meet Walsh (Marino's name is crossed out):

read what it says on the program Ruslan, it says World.

Promoters were prone to be inventive, just because it was on the handbill didn't always make it so. We find this much easier to confirm because of the Internet, as Bernard and others have said on this forum in the past we believed what was on the poster and later what Kent Walton told us we thought was gospel, we found out later it wasn't. You just have to look the then WWF tag team the Smokin Gunns who hit into wrestling at college when they were there on a rodeo scholarship. You just wonder how the commentators kept a straight face.

You're right on two counts Bernard. Norman was World Mid Heavyweight Champion and the promoters would tell us anything.

But I don't think you would see him as World Mid Heavyweight Champion. It's a bit like the British title, the name only came in later.

Here is Norman still Junior Heavyweight champion as late as 1958

Please can someone sort this out fairly quickly?

I understood that Norman Walsh was the World Midheavyweight champion.

Does anyone else agree with Ruslan claiming that he was the Junior Heavyweight champion.?

I know that promoters did what they like with "Their Titles",but Ruslan you still haven't convinced me on why Relwyskow would let Walsh take one of "his titles".

Walsh was a top Morell man for many years before his defection to the Independents.

I will post some Jr Heavyweight billings here.

Hi Ruslan, whilst I am debating on another thread with Hack on a similar subject, please tell me this. If Relwyskow was controlling the Euro and World titles, do you really think that he would let a staunch (At that time) JP man hold a World title. Walsh was World M/H title holder.

Without Morrel's innovative reinventing of Wrestling it would have stayed fragmented for much longer and maybe we would have never see Joint Promotions as we knew it. We probably would have not had the TV exposure that turned wrestlers into nationally known athletes. Subsequently we might not have been partaking of this website and adding our thoughts and opinions to this forum. He was the man who reinvented wrestling!

world and euro titles were controlled by another 'promotion' Relwyskow/Green...Morell didn't care for those, he was in charge of British titles only.

Ron, thanks for suggesting me doing that, I would love to do it...promotions, their titles and trophies.

Ruslan said:-

It is a good question why Morell invented mid-heavy title, we can see from Hack's post that originally there was no such a weight category according the Mountevans Rules of wrestling.

I think I have an answer to this one...looks like Morell had his "troupe of wrestlers" and every single one of them got a title Joyce Heavy, Riley Light Heavy, Mann Middle, Dempsey Welter, Riss Light...but one of the most popular champions of that era Walsh would have been left without a title if we strictly follow Mountevans Rules...so Morell simply created a title for his man and called it a good day.

Ruslan , I don't think anyone could argue that you have the finest collection of pictures of belts in the world and gaining knowledge all the time about who owned them.

Can I suggest that you get some pictures into the galleries in a systematic sort of way , maybe weight classes or whatever.

It would be a tremendous collection and what an addition to Heritage.

The pictures can have comments both from yourself and others to light up the knowledge behind each belt.

Galleries are a much easier way of finding these gems again rather than on old Forum Topics.

Same situation with the original Eric Taylor 's title - heavy middleweight, according original Mountevans Rules there was NO such weight category, yet Morell created it for Eric. Again, looks like Morell created weight divisions for every single one of his top wrestlers. Such a nice guy.

Ruslan said:-

But let's put it that way Light Heavy Morell/Mountevans belt was held by Ernie Riley for decade, no one calls it with his name anymore...sad reality.

Norman Walsh held the British Midheavyweight title from ,what I believe was it's inception, until his car accident.I think he got it back later for a while.

BUT why was this new weight class created by Norman Morrell? Any thoughts?

Thanks Ost, nice to know that some people still read my old recollections.

By the way this poster shows both belts the gold World's Jr Hwt Belt and silver Euro Cruiserweight (or Jr Hwt) Belt, which makes it clear, those were Relw's Titles.

"In America it's the most common thing Stecher belt, Lewis Belt, Thesz belt, etc." I'm pretty sure reason those belts are known by those names is because they are named after the wrestler who was first awarded that actual belt. In the 1930's you had three major world titles in the USA and the easiest way to keep track of them is to refer to them shorthand e.g. "Lewis belt." because there were double-crosses and unifications and all sorts of confusing activity. It would be like calling the Thesz belt the Adonis belt because Adrian Adonis used that actual belt in the early 1980's. Bit of a misnomer.

Bernard, I really enjoy your input, gives us context which I think is important.

Here's a good example of what I am talking about. Relwyskow programme, proper name of the title European Cruiserwieght Championship and Belt. It was the silver belt which modern day wrestling fans know as The Marty Jones Belt.

As for the Marino belts from the photos, all belts were Relwyskow Family property, so when refer to those trophies I prefer calling them with the names Geo Relw Jr called them, namely: silver belt (Euro Jr Hwt), gold belt (World Jr Hwt). To me it makes sense (makes research easier) and is fair and accurate. That's why I am always trying to connect trophy to promotion. There never was a trophy by itself without promotion. After the new bosses came in the 70s obviously the titles those belts represented were changed.

Yes Hack you are right, younger generation fans call that belt Marty Jones Belt because that's all they remember, Marty held that belt or World Mid Heavyweight title on 7 different occasions, appeared wearing it on TV countless number of time, that's why nowadays Belt is known as Marty Jones Belt.

This all is pretty logical. Wrestling culture. In America it's the most common thing Stecher belt, Lewis Belt, Thesz belt, etc. I am personally kind of fan of it. It's good to know which promotion and title the belt was symbolic of but it's even more important to remember the champion's name who held it more times than any other wrestler.

But let's put it that way Light Heavy Morell/Mountevans belt was held by Ernie Riley for decade, no one calls it with his name anymore...sad reality.

I think we've got a long way to go before we get anywhere near to sorting out this Mid hvt/Junior heavyweight/World/Mid heavyweight/Light heavyweight situation.

Ruslan is right that the original Mountevans weight divisions did not include Mid heavyweight, neither did they include Junior heavyweight; went straight from Light Heavyweight to Mid Heavyweight. You will see the weight divisions are not the same as the ones most of us remember as the Mountevans divisions (11st, 11.11, 12.8, 13.5, 14.2, 14.13).

I see two barriers getting in the way of our discussion. Firstly, we need to distinguish between a championship lineage and the use of a physical belt. Ruslan has already demonstrated that one belt was used by a different wrestler at different weights.

Secondly, referring to a belt as "X's belt" is unhelpful. I do not recall a belt ever being referred to as "X's belt," other than a reference to the current holder, e.g. "Bert Royal's belt" because he was the holder at that time.

In the case of Marty Jones it seems a complete nonsense. Marty Jones only became World Mid Heavyweight champion in the 1980s. He was about three years old when Marino first wore the belt. I guess this may be an internet thingie, with some younger fans referring to it as the "Marty Jones belt."

Hack , as a p.s. to this perhaps you should alter my quote in the A-Z please!

See my post in the A-Z for Norman Walsh. At the time I was wrong and subsequently someone said it was the world M. H. title. I know that he was in South Africa, because Flo sent me a postcard from Durban. She was telling me that Norman loved all of the American cars out there, his favourite was a Buick straight eight.

Afterwards someone else found a record that said that he took the world title from Mannie Moritz.

Unfortunately, the photo I have of Norman Walsh wearing that belt is blurry and needs replacing.

I was pretty sure the belt Marino and Johnny Allan are seen wearing was the British Mid-Heavyweight title. However, Bernard reminded me about the World Mid-Heavyweight title. Here's an article from a Mat Review (when I find the back cover amongst my images i'll get a date for the timeframe):

So I guess it's either of those two belts (it's different than the one shown in the Walsh A-Z listing).

What is the evidence that the Relwyskow family owned these belts.

Remember that after 1953 Morrell, Beresford, Wryton, Relwyskow & Green and Dale Martin shared the same champions.

Sorry to throw a banana skin into your well worked summary of the 3 belts Ruslan, but Norman Walsh held that belt (shown in picture in A-Z) and he was not with Relwyskow then(if ever).

That's if I have got this right. Having so many belts is confusing.

I thought that we had decided previously that the belt shown on Walsh in the A-Z ,was the World Midheavyweight belt.

No ?

Now we have all three belts identified:

Top Left - Euro Jr Hwt, aka Euro Cruiserweight (Silver Belt)

Top Right - Relw Belt, more likely KO Hwt Tourney Trophy (like in case with Davies-65 Title)

Bottom - World's Jr Hwt (Gold Belt)

All three titles/belts were of Relwyskow Promotion.

"... Belt from the top left corner is known as Marty Jones Belt. Belt from the top right is famous 1909 Relwyskow Belt. ..."

Ruslan, do you mean that you call the belt the "Marty Jones" belt, or that it is commonly known as that?, Marty Jones would have only been young lad when those pictures were taken?

Belt top right, 1909 Relwyskow Belt v Carlos Moll. I doubt this belt was symbolic of the World Mid Heavy title though...I am still thinking of Marino winning the KO Tourney with it being at stake. Need help.

November 1969 17th;NOTTINGHAM ICE RINK; Marino bt Moll (WORLD MID HEAVY TITLE)

December 1969 7th; HALIFAX; Marino stpd Moll (WORLD MID HVY TITLE)

March 14 1970 BELLE VUE; Marino NC Moll

Johnny Allen with Norman Walsh Belt, same as from the bottom part of Marino photo collage.

Hi Ruslan. Log in on the A-Z for Norman Walsh.

I THINK that the belt in the photo is the World Midheavyweight Title belt.

BUT you know far more about belts than I do. This is one of the titles that Marino got after Walsh had his car crash.