OAKELEY'S NITES OF CHAMPIONS 1952!!

The main difference that I see between Oakley's champions and JP or DM, is that the champions of the latter 2 could be seen doing the business week in and week out.

How many times did the Spanish Champion or the Jewish heavyweight champion defend their titles?

Just look at Oakley's bills and you can virtually see the exaggerations.

What an interesting post. Gerry Hoggarth who wrestled Jock Ward for the Oakeley version of the British Heavyweight title had fond memories of Sir Atholl, not least the fact that he was sent a £25 bonus by him after that bout at the RAH. Sir Atholl lived on a big house boat on the Thames and Gerry recalled being taken to out dinner at The Savoy or Ritz and having to copy his host as to which items of cutlery to use with each course! He told me the resident act that night was Maurice Chevalier. Also, before the bouts and during the interval at the RAH, buskers entered the ring and he recalled one being Mr Acker Bilk with his clarinet. Gerry was also introduced by Sir Atholl to this Indian entrepreneur who was to arrange a wrestling tour of India. After having all the necessary injections etc, he was then informed the tour had been cancelled. He would have loved to see the poster of 12th May, Hack.

Gerry also knew Tiger Joe Robinson well. He, like Gerry, was a champion Cumberland & Westmorland wrestler in his younger days and he also taught the martial arts. (Gerry tried like mad to get Bob Sherry take up C & W but couldn't persuade him. "He'd have tekken to it like a duck to water" mused Gerry)

Happy memories - I do miss my dear old pal!

It does say pre-1914 prices so Sir Atholl was probably on the money. We know of the miles-long queues to see Hackenschmidt in 1908 - entrance must have been very expensive.

Valid points from The Ost, but in his defence Oakeley was doing what it said on the tin - promoting, Oakeley had promoted for most of the 1930s. He claims that he didn't promote during the war so it must have been demoralising to find that not only had others filled the void but that they had got themselves organised and were keeping him out in the cold.

Atholl was still there in May, 1953, but the prices have dropped.

By November Dale Martin have moved in

Ray Plunkett has these two matches from 24th September: Ernie Baldwin 1-1 Addi Berber .... Jack Dempsey v Little Arab

Could this have been the first Dale Martin show?

I think it's fair to point out the hyperbole of Oakeley's billing at this point. It's always a bit too much. Because he makes everyone a champion on one card, the main eventers need a laundry list of accomplishments to stand above the rest of the field.

There's very little chance any wrestler can live up to a billing like that. Fans are bound to feel let down, and eventually tired of all the bluster. It may have worked on select occasions in the 30's but by 1952 he couldn't get the talent of the same calibre.

DM opted for a similar approach at the RAH - present the best wrestlers from UK & abroad - but they didn't overburden them before the public had seen them.

Oakeley became a "Sir" in 1959 with his inheritance , married the following year and had a boat that he used to charge for trips off the Hamshire Coast circa 1962. As far back as 1952 Oakeley is in the papers Yacht racing so I think he had plenty to do. In 1987 he left just shy of £16,500 in his will.

Also ANGLO-Another Factor is that by 1952-OAKELEY was 52 Years old-He'd Retired from Wrestling

in 1935 and had been in The 'Game' for 30+ Years!-In those Days Retiring at around 60 was pretty normal-so maybe he decided to do just that-Retire!!

It wasn't like Today where-unless you're very lucky and well-placed-some Poor Souls have to Work 'til they Drop!! He must have made his Money by this Time!?

MAIN MASK

We used to be senile, now thanks to Saxonwolf we are rabid. Love it - makes me feel virile ☺

Main Mask makes a good point about which championships were the real ones. We are probably guilty of judging 1952 by knowing what would happen in the ensuing years when wrestlers like Marino and JP's titles themselves gained their credibility due to being around for appreciable time periods and travelling nationwide. And then of course four years later when JPs started appearing on tv - well, that made it all official.

Oakeley's show was competing against Dale Martin's, wasn't it? And he lost out. He may have lost out due to excessive claims that were then just a letdown in the ring. And we are viewing a poster or handbill - I'd like to bet the programme ended up with multiple changes.

But let's not forget that Dale Martin's went to great lengths ten years later to eliminate Paul Lincoln Promotions. In 1952, with the Albert Hall in their sights, the Dale brothers must have been even hungrier and I feel sure they must have gone to some lengths to eradicate Atholl Oakeley. I wonder what lengths?

Fair play to DM: once they got their mits on the RAH they didn't let it go and must have satisfied the management there with their professionalism.

Yes SaxonWolf I think your extra point is right and it is hard to think of any time where a champion of a small promotion could have matched the champs of the big boys.

Even Assirati when he promoted at the end of his time had had his day, even Jack Taylor I should imagine.

It has indeed been the internet that has exposed what really went on and that has been no bad thing as we have had hours of fun debating it all. Never has there been such a chance for all of us fans to talk to one another.

"... The reason for no records is very plain......It was not real..."

Exactly Ron!

I guess no one could predict the rise of the internet, or before that, rabid fans who collected results and shared them with like minded souls overseas, a bit like pen friends.

I was also thinking recently that another reason why the Morrell/Mountevans Champs were who they were, in other words, all real wrestlers (as far as we know), could be because if any other "Champ" from any other promotion spouted their mouth off, the Mountevans boys would be confident that they could call the other guy out, to settle it (for real) in the ring.

I think most of us get a bit peeved from time to time at the deception.

Credibility comes in a bit more with the size of a promoters Roster.

I remember analyzing Stampede for the six months Kendo was there and they only used 20 men of which four or so were part timers. It covered two Canadian States and had the North American Champion , but we found the truth.

Jack Cassidy , I don't think bothered with champions because of the size of his Roster.

There was no limit to Oakeley's imagination , he made a contribution , I don't believe the biggest which his book might suggest , but we just need to remember to laugh at it all.

We are celebrating the biggest deception of all time.

As for credibility , we must remember that there are no official records , only attempts to try and trace a lineage. The reason for no records is very plain......It was not real.

Joe Robinson is an interesting one, he came from a family of legit wrestlers, who also did Pro Wrestling. I think it was his father who Billy Riley won his world title from, in a contest in South Africa.

He was a Judo champion and also a black belt in Karate.

When he was 70 years old he single handedly fought off a gang of muggers in Cape Town, who were armed with baseball bats, leaving one with a broken arm!

Well, start off with Joe Robinson. How can he be from Britain and South Africa and hold the heavyweight titles for both countries?

Accept the fact that promoters made these things up on bills to "put bums on seats"

It was their livelihood. The bigger the fictitious claims, hopefully the more punters they drew in.

Yes, very creative titles, but the mass of them must have come across as a circus to most of the fans.

Looks like Sir Atholl invested in Tiger Joe and Haystacks, and then recruited the public bar at his local to fill the rest of the bill.

Maybe I can answer my own question: maybe this bill with its wildly unfounded claims went down so poorly that Sir Atholl was turfed out of the Albert Hall? And Dale Martin swooped to sweep up the pieces. I wonder if there was any press coverage on 19th December - you'd think so, coming out of such a night of championships.

Thanks for your comment Hack.

You only have to read below the lines.

Judo Al Hayes is British Heavyweight champion in 1952 yet a week or so later is billed as Junior Heavyweight champion.

Apart from miscellaneous Spanish Champions , Jewish champions and Sky High Lee billed as Worlds cowboy champion etc. the worst load of garbage is Joe Robinson.

Billed as South Africa and Britain. Well they got one right .! Born in Newcastle I believe.

Then Champion of Europe , champion of South Africa, World's non-oriental judo champion ( someone quite brilliant there !) I don't Know about Cumberland and Westmorland champion.

They should have had a photo of him with a garland round his neck and a rosette and stated that he won horse of the year show too.

Dubious heavyweight champions Bernard?

How dare you question the integrity of wrestling?

As usual, you're quite right of course.

They would have us believe anything.

Some very dubious heavyweight champions in this thread.

In line with all promoters pushing to make bills look more important and interesting.

Oakeley was a promoter in the true sense of the word; doing everything possible to attract fans to his shows. The uncharitable amongst us, and I'm one, would say he was still promoting when he wrote his version of history in Blue Blood on the Mat.

Boy, did he know how to charge? Two pounds and 5 shillings ringside when a quick Google says that men earned an average £9 a week, and women received just £5. Gonzales the Gorilla and Tiger Joe might have sounded tempting but a quarter of your weeks wage? Fifteen years later I could have paid 7/6 ringside, but couldn't afford it and went for 5/- in the balcony.

Anglo Italian asks a good question (he's better with questions than answers) that I don't know the answer to. My suggestion would be that Dale Martin were able to take over because Oakeley had run out of steam and money. He had the creative genius but not the business nouse of Dale Martin. He would put on expensive bills without any fallback if they failed to make money. Dale Martin were already running shows all around southern England. The loss at any one show, even the Royal Albert Hall, could be compensated for by profits elsewhere.

I don't like saying it, but I think Oakeley was in it for love, Dale Martin for the money.

Did Oakeley have any title belts in the late 40s and 50s???