ONE FOR HACK AND ANGLO!!

great post Hack, thanks, much appreciated. Scissors by ancient Greeks...very interesting, in 1896 during first Olympics they actually used Greek Rules not French (Greco-Roman) Rules, but long story short...when I was writing my story of catch I collected various catch wrestling rulesets which were in use since 1820s British, German (and Swiss) and American...and my summary would be - if applied hold doesn't lead to a proper throw which is a back fall (ONLY BACK FALL), but instead is used for the punishing purposes...then it's not catch wrestling, but something else. According to the most historical Lancashire Catch-as-catch-can Snipe Inn Rules of 1856 it was the most important requirement to the organizers and participants of pro wrestling matches.

Here's the article that inspired Main Masks original comment.

highly recommend The Man Who Laughs, by Victor Hugo.

it was rumoured that henry VIII wrestling matches were fake because he never lost a bout.....

Hack, sadly very often we hear here and there pro wrestling being called fake etc...the thing is even in the 1700s pro wrestling matches were predetermined finishes but that doesn't make them fake...men were kicking shins, breaking legs and throwing each other all over the place with those dangerous throws like flying horses and flying mares and bad landing would often paralyze those who were thrown...to call it fake...is hypocrisy.

is that when Oakeley decided to invent XX Century Catch? Did this accident cause that? First thing Oakeley did was cancelling the submissions...so it was back falls, points or KO.

Going back to the original question it seems the answer may well be found on Heritage (of course). Here's the A-Z entry for Strangler George Johnson

George Johnson of Sheffield was a very rough wrestler who took up the sport soon after it was introduced to Britain. Strangler Johnson and Carl Romsky had wrestled each other many times before, but tragedy occurred on 3rd March, 1933, when Strangler died at Sheffield Railway station following their match. Police officers who were present at the match described it as savage and brutal. The inquest, recording a verdict of death by heart failure, added that wrestling ought to be barred, with the Coroner adding that all-in wrestling seemed to be an unlawful sport, and when a combatant died as a result his opponent was liable to a charge of manslaughter. Questions about the death of Strangler Johnson and the need to regulate wrestling, were raised in Parliament.

yes the core of the subject is how big bosses portrayed to be "very serious" about their business which is every single match under their promotion. They made sure that every match was presented as the true contest, 100% sport event, and in the 50s and 60s you will still see the bills which speak of challenge matches with 50 pounds a-side at stake or a KO Tourney with 250 pounds goes to the winner conditions. It was advertised just like in the 1880s or early 1900s.

This is the crux of the matter, Matey Dave.

We are trying to assess just how seriously wrestling was taken then; not that the councillors were silly - just that the wrestling was very realistic.

forgive me for commenting, but surely the watch committee were not that stupid to understand that a kwango head butt was a fake. in fact the moves were not put on to hurt but look good.

unless they were worried that impressionable young lads would do it for real outside on the streets

According to Johnny Kincaid, although the Sheffield rules were indeed "the law", they were generally ignored unless a watch committee member was at the show. Even then, they were able to use the banned holds/moves as long as the referee immediately gave a public warning. (They couldn't usually get away with having the villain do it behind the referee's back to build up heat.)

Lucky us I still have it...enjoy the 1904 modified amateur Rules as they were used for pros during Alhambra Tourneys 1908-09-10.

I believe I still have a print of 1904 NAWA Rules those were in use for both amateurs and pros in 1904 when NAWA tried to control pros as well, they failed at that, so in the 1900s and 1910s modified amateur rules were used. Victory on back falls or points was essence of amateur rules.

No submissions. No hammerlocks, no scissors, no full nelsons, no strangle holds obviously or hangs of any sort. Few weeks ago I made a post Manchester's Sporting Chronicle Rules it was basically a copy of NAWA Rules. I can explain why all those holds were abolished - simply because most of them do not lead to a pinfall, which means that they are useless for wrestlers since pinfall is an ultimate goal of any wrestling contest. It was a time when everyone wanted to see fair wrestling not an all-in fight.

All 3 Alhambra Lonsdale Pro Tourneys were under modified Amateur Rules.

I remember the Sheffield situation as it was mentioned by Kent on tv. I'd no idea why they introduced these local rules though. It was discussed a few years back.

ohtani's jacket

Hi all,

Today I was watching a match between Barry Douglas and Johnny Peters where Walton mentioned that the Sheffield Watch Committee had banned three moves in Sheffield -- the back elbow, the arm leveler over the top of the shoulder joint and the headbutt.

What was a Watch Committee and could heels break these rules to get heat or were they actually legitimate regulations the wrestlers couldn't break?

August 24, 2014 at 10:34 AM

Bill Smith

The watch committee could close a place down.They were legitimate regs in Sheffield

August 24, 2014 at 12:12 PM

SaxonWolf

As a Sheffielder, I can tell you this is true, the local council would send people to the City Hall when wrestling was on.

August 24, 2014 at 12:32 PM

wryton

I went there in 74/75 time, the rules were displayed as you walked in.

August 24, 2014 at 7:20 PM

beancounter

When most cities had their own Police Forces, the Watch Committees were the bodies to whom they were accountable. I understand they were made up of local councillers and suchlike and, as Bill Smith implies, were not to be messed with. With the Police Forces being reorganised regionally during the 1970s, the Watch Committees lost their function and are now part of history along with such worthy institutions as the Assizes, Quarter Sessions and the old County Boundaries, all of which were cruelly abolished by a philistine Government around the same time.

Getting back to the subject in hand, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but wasn't the back elbow a banned move generally until around 1963? Also, I well remember the headbutt rule applying at Sheffield and I'm fairly sure a bout between Johnny Kwango and Masambula was once advertised to be televised from there but cannot recall seeing it take place. Wonder if the promoters were just doing a cynical wind up job on the Watch Committee!

August 27, 2014 at 7:39 PM

Dave Sutherland

I once saw Johnny Kwango (I think against Clayton Thompson) on televison getting a warning for headbutting in a Sheffield venue.

August 28, 2014 at 3:01 AM

Ray Hulm

I suspect that this harks back to an earlier period when some local authorities took a dim view of wrestling. Remember that the London County Council had banned wrestling altogether and it was largely because of this that the Mountevans Rules came about. Perhaps the Sheffield Watch Committee were offered a compromise of having some moves banned. The promoters would have loved it. Think of all the spin that they could put on this. Come on Ron Historyo! Start trawling through those old Sheffield press clippings.

August 28, 2014 at 8:01 AM

ohtani's jacket

To answer my own question, a match between Bobby Graham and Billy Torontos revealed that the wrestlers received a public warning for using a banned move. Also, you could apparently deliver a headbutt to anywhere except the head.

November 18, 2014 at 10:57 PM

I don't know specifically about Sheffield, Adrian, but Wrestling was certainly a contentious sport through the forties and local councils were there quickly to take umbrage at everything and anything.

The poor promoters were in an impossible position as they couldn't exactly come out and say "They're only play-acting."

If the promoter played his hand well, the Sheffield situation was actually good publicity for the legitimacy of wrestling.

Councils opposed women's wrestling for many years.