Promotional Powershift

Not to forget 26 May 1947 versus Al Lipton on the fledgling BBC

Common ground is that there was a move away from Lancashire/Yorkshire based champions during the 1960s and Mick McManus appeared on tv more than anyone else.

Reading more into this, such as a promotional poweshift led by McManus' authority should be treated with caution. Admittedly eight appearances (I make it nine) is impressive but we shouldn't jump to conclusions - correlation between the appearances and McManus' role is far from certain, and there's no evidence that one caused the other.

The first bear trap is a lack of data. John Lister does a magnificent job with his website data, but its still evolving.

So far data has been discovered for only nine shows in1958 and ten in 1959, so McManus may have made more appearances than we thought.

In 1958 McManus appeared in three out of the nine shows listed. That's one third, a bigger proportion than any other year. It would be absurd to claim this was a peak year for McManus but does demonstrate the dangers of limited data.

The second bear trap is that we are not considering like with like. TV wrestling in 1961 changed significantly from the previous year.

From 31/12/60 until 25/3/61 there were two broadcasts (of completely different events) on Saturday: an afternoon broadcast in London and the South and an evening show in the Midlands and North.

So nine outings is impressive, but there were far more opportunities with two shows each Saturday. McManus appeared on 7 afternoon and 2 evening shows, on both on 18th February.

In 1962 appearances dropped to seven, a minor fluctuation. More significant was the start of the McManus-Pallo. This propelled both to national prominence. Good grafters giving the fans value for money and a good enough reason to keep McManus's appearances of around a dozen for the rest of the decade, helped again by the addition of mid week shows in 1964. Mick's power of the pen would aid this but that's not a promotional powershift.

McManus held power in the Dale Martin 1960s office, there's no evidence of his power extending beyond that.

Have I misunderstood or is there a serious suggestion that a wrestler would have a central role in acquiring the tv contract in 1955?

That's a barely incredible suggestion. No. It's incredible. Just who in Joint Promotions led the negotiations on the wrestling side we don't know, but it would have been a top management responsibility.

Evolution yes, power shift, no.

Ruslan:  "It just cannot be all chaos."

SWEEEET.

Sounds like the meaning of life. But we are discussing something more important than the meaning of life here.

I think we are over-complicating things here, somewhat. I don't think anyone would disagree that, probably due to the rise in TV set ownership, Wrestling took off in the late 50's and early 60's on ITV and one of the main beneficiaries was "the man you love to hate", Mick McManus.

I've always said that Mick was as much an icon of the 1960's as The Beatles, Cilla, Twiggy the Mini (skirt), the Mini (car), Carnaby Street, etc. I don't know why he took off, but maybe an exaggerated villainous persona was missing from the TV channels and he was the ultimate (at that time) rule bender.

I think we deduced (a while back) that Mick had a printing company and probably had the contract to print all the Dale Martin posters. He seems to have been a loyal company man, enough to tip off his employers about certain things. He was a very famous TV wrestler who could put bums on seats. Did the Dale Martin organization decide that the above made him a good contender to be match maker?

Another thought popped into my head, probably way off base, but did we ever know exactly who were the members of the Hurst Park Syndicate? When they bought DM, did Mick see his chance and tell them he wanted a slice of the business or he was off?

Didn't Tony St. Clair say that when he was told that Joint Promotions were going to put the heavyweight belt on him, it was Mick who told him, after Tony had been summonsed to Leeds to meet with the board at the Joint board meeting?

I think we all suspect that McManus had a lot more involvement than we originally thought, but I still don't see a "power shift" at promoter level, not if we are using 1961 as a starting point, and then saying that the belts changed hands, briefly, years later.

FINALLY. WE ARE HAVING A CONVERSATION. FUN TO READ. MORE FUN TO THINK. To think about all these things, historical events if you will, and to try to make some sense of them. To me personally that is the only proper approach to wrestling history, or history in general. It just cannot be all chaos. Those were actions of powerful men greedy for a big buck...hence expect at least some logic behind their behavior. Lol.

Enjoying this, very much.

Good, we are making progress and agreeing a bit. Of course we are not obliged to agree 100%, and only by expressing ourselves fully will we ever make progress.

In fairness to myself, I always separated Bert Royal out as active all over the South but in no way a DM wrestler.

Put simply, all the others lived in London or the suburbs.

And by 1969, the only two "old" champions were very inactive and unco-operatively hogging their belts.

Maybe a clearer way of identifying what I mean is through the opposite; looking at those fifties champions. Dempsey in fairness seemed to wrestle a lot in the South, at least on big bills. Maybe I am thinking too wishfully that his coverage was on a scale with Bert Royal's? But the others seemed to be northerners who did their absolute minimums in the South, though B. Joyce did have some flurries.

So we agree on the facts, the changes.

But I disagree still about the cause when you write:

"I don't see it as a powershift, more natural evolution."

Natural evolution would have meant proper northern "shooters" (or whatever) like Naylor and Martinelli and Ray Glendenning would have become long-term seventies champions; but they didn't get a look in.

The reason I believe in the Powershift is that there was so much other evidence of Dale Martin, through Mick McManus as the outward sign, wielding power in other ways. His outrageous number of tv appearances, improbable claiming of the European title and holding onto it through his fifties, his part in creating the Pallo feud, his non-wrestling tv work, his top-billing nationwide - always the big name. It just all adds up. I can't think of any other wrestler who exuded so much power. Oh, add to that another sure sign - a lot of wrestlers didn't like him (by no means a majority, though.)

And I detect this shift to be from early 1961. This fits in also with others' comments.

So the question I suppose I am asking myself is: what precisely happened in late 1960?

We did a great job together some years ago dissecting the final months of Paul Lincoln Promotions before the merger/takeover/sellout. This is a greater challenge, being even further back, but late 1960 does interest me.

The crux of the powershift argument is that the line up of British champions in 1960 was very different to those in 1970. On that we agree, though with a ten year gap it's hardly surprising.

In 1960 weestlers of Lancashire and Yorkshire had exclusive hold of titles. By 1970 there were only two. Again, I think we agree.

The non Lancashire/Yorkshire ones you term Dale Martin men and I gather this is the foundation of the promotional powershift argument.

There we start to drift apart.

Bert Royal could hardly be claimed a Dale Martin man. Yes he worked for them, but he travelled to every part of the country and worked for every JP member. Dale Martin employed him because he was a good worker, readily travelling from his home in Bolton.

Sergeant, Lincoln nurtured, but yes roots well and truly in DM. Thomson and Maxine both working DM regularly, but they were nationwide figures who could be seen all over the country. I wouldn't call them DM men, but then it's never occurred to me to name anyone a Morrell man or Wryton man.

But okay, we agree titles were no longer Lancs/Yorks exclusive and Boscik, Maxine, Thomson, Sergeant were active on Dale Martin bills.

Was this a result of a promotional powershift?

I can't see any reason to think so. It has already been noted but most of these champions gained their titles and made most defences in non Dale Martin halls. If the supposed power shift had taken place surely Dale Martin would have shown a much greater interest in staging title matches in the second half of the sixties.

Of course, all this assumes DM had been the weaker partner in the fifties. To be honest this has never occcurred to me; I've always accepted Joint Promotions as a partnership of equals.

So, if the changes were a real phenomenon, and it wasn't the result of a powershift, what was it?

Television brought wrestling to the nation in the 1960s. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that all the JP members understood that restricting champions to a geographical area was unsustainable. Motorways were making communications easier. Champions available all around the country were of benefit to all the members, not just Dale Martin.

I don't see it as a powershift, more natural evolution.

"You're seriously suggesting Mick would double-cross to get a title? McManus was the ultimate professional and would never do this."

Of course not. Get real! The beauty of what I am explaining to you, Hack, is that Mick had the authority, power, to claim that title and Norman had to swallow handing him the belt on a plate on his own bill, standing helplessly by. Do you seriously think at 49 and out of condition Mick had the ability to double-cross anyone? Morrell was obliged to appease.

Hope Ruslan can do his forensics on this:

Hack, you are descending into childish personal comments when I started this thread to to examine the really rather important subject of the promotional powershift. I listed various facts yet you say there is no evidence of it. You seem to be in denial.

The irony is, I am not even a big McManus fan, I saw him wrestle far too often and became too aware, and then critical, of his show. Funnily enough, it was one of the last times that I saw him live, against Breaks at the Albert Hall, that he really astounded me in his versatility.

I just want to work out how this undeniable major Powershift came about in an accurate impartial manner.

Let me try to summarise the matter again. Dale Martin was always the BIGGEST promoter within Joint Promotions, covering more than half the country. But in the fifties, it was they who had to appease the board in Leeds. An outward sign we see of this is that they had no British title holders. Dale Martin punched below its weight. Then, through the sixties, the whole thing changed, judging again by the outward sign of British title holders. Dale Martin started to dominate Joint Promotions.

The ownership of Dale Martin is irrelevant. We don't even know the true extent of McManus's role. ("Matchmaker" is not a valid description.) Irrespective of the changing ownership of Dale Martin, Dale Martin Promotions flourished. And they started to flourish spectacularly from the time when McManus, very suddenly, exploded onto the tv scene, culminating in his final domination of the listing on this site of tv appearances. I happen not to think this is a coincidence and want to explore the connection (in a grown up way, if possible.) Dale Martin Promotions existed very successfully well into the eighties.

I do think two other Yorkshiremen are interesting in this Powershift.

Credit to Max Crabtree: he seemed to manage McManus effectively as his talent. But isn't it likely that it was McManus himself who told Max he fancied unmasking Kung Fu on tv and tagging against Nagasaki at the Albert Hall? Again, we don't know exactly.

But Les Kellett also comes into it. We know he had a major falling out with Morrell's MC at about the time of the Preston-McManus match. What happens next? He starts appearing with far greater regularity on Dale Martin bills. In fact, when I saw him wrestle McManus live in 1968, I wasn't aware that this was part of a two-year "feud." (Feud being the wrong word, of course. They just trotted out their bout inconclusively all over the South.) Les and Mick cosied up to each other big time. Les had all the work he could handle, opponents of his choice, so important for his show. Mick had a sour former righthand man of Morrell, as Bernard's memories confirm, as his new best buddy and probably extracted with glee all information he could from Les about Morrell's set up.

Yes, the European and World titles were local. Local to UK as I explained. McManus knew that it was the British titles that meant so very much to Morrell; and so he proceeded to relieve Morrell of these titles - with great success. This is the outward sign of this major Powershift. It may very well be that the January 1967 double-cross by Peter Preston was provoked by Dale-Martin (McManus) having started his title acquisitions in the preceding years.

There was great stealth in the way Dale Martin operated at this time. We see this also in the sudden victory over Paul Lincoln Promotions at the end of 1965, as a result of which Dale Martin became even greater in size. And as we know from the autumn 1965 Southend war with Lincoln, right down to blocking poor Graham's bill by leaving him without a ring, Dale Martin could be absolutely ruthless.

A great debate , entertaining reading , have we got anywhere , I have my doubts.

Anglo Italian must have a lot of time on his hands at the moment.

"This has nothing to do with the changing owners of Dale Martin at investor or board level."

bkendo1 has brought some accuracy and inside information to this nonsensical crusade. Please do not be disrespectful to one of our most knowledgeable and highly respected members.

“The Powershift is perfectly clear. I can't understand how it can be disputed."

It's far from clear. We have yet to see or hear any evidence of a powershift. We know Dale Martin sold out in 1963, the rest of JP original promoters retired in the early 1970s and were managed and eventually bought out by Max Crabtree. With the exception of Relwyskow Green.

"1971 when portly Mick rolled Norman's nose in the mud for one final time by taking possession quite inappropriately of the European Middleweight Championship on a Morrell bill in far-from-Southern Nottingham...This was big-time payback for Peter Preston at Lime Grove, January 1967."

You're seriously suggesting Mick would double-cross to get a title? McManus was the ultimate professional and would never do this.

"Mick mirrored his contemporaries Kidd and Colbeck by nabbing an unimportant local title for the next five or six years."

Kidd and Colbeck held local titles? What are they putting in that Italian plonk you drink these days?

"I am no expert on the smaller satellite members of Joint Promotions,"

Morrell a smaller satellite? And now I realise even you are having a laugh and don't believe any of this nonsense. I will agree with you that you are no expert though. (And remind everyone none of us are experts. This is wrestling. Only a fool would believe he was an expert).

Please provide evidence of any poweshift and not your personal opinions. Or maybe it's time to give it a rest.

This has nothing to do with the changing owners of Dale Martin at investor or board level.

This has to do with the day to day running of the business by the industry professionals.

The Powershift is perfectly clear. I can't understand how it can be disputed.

I can, however, quite understand the discussion about how Dale Martin's dominance came about. I find it intriguing.

We can nudge outside my sixties bookends and into 1971 when portly Mick rolled Norman's nose in the mud for one final time by taking possession quite inappropriately of the European Middleweight Championship on a Morrell bill in far-from-Southern Nottingham. Mick's aged unathleticism just goes to underscore what absolute power he had achieved. Some might say good on him, after 25 years of dedicated professionalism, albeit ruthless at times.

This was big-time payback for Peter Preston at Lime Grove, January 1967.

Notice also how the British tiltles were the coveted Crown Jewels. European and World titles were frivolous by comparison, and Mick mirrored his contemporaries Kidd and Colbeck by nabbing an unimportant local title for the next five or six years. He knew better than to claim a sacred British title at his age. (Every country boasted its own European and World champions, little did we know at the time.)

I am no expert on the smaller satellite members of Joint Promotions, but I don't believe Norman lasted very much longer after this humiliation.

Meanwhile the wrestling ring could no longer contain Mick's might and he hob-nobbed it on major 1971 tv shows of the day like The Generation Game and Going For A Song. Name any other wrestler who ever had such connections to enjoy these mainstream perks.

If we move further into the seventies, Mick delegated power to the likes of Marino, and, through executive decisions, assured buddies like Wayne Bridges and Mal Sanders and Cornwall's Tony St Clair and 100% reliable Maxine enjoyed pushes and prominence - not to mention an albeit fleetingly touching British title for the Iron Man.

The only gaffe seems to be how he let Max Crabtree get his foot in the Brixton door and I must confess I have no idea how this abhorrence came about.

There's no time for bkendo1 to sleep tonight. Keep writing. Tell us more.

But before any mention of DM in the north excites Anglo Italian too much let's remind him that papers from. Companies House tell us Directors were J.G. Abbey, W.L. Beresford, M. Judd, N. Morrell. Two Managing Directors were Morrell and Abbey. The company was wound up on 3rd. December, 1973.

So no sign of a power shift south there.

Of course as a strictly neutral,yeah right, I'm enjoying this it becomes muddier by the minute well did Dale Martin Metro come under the spotlight.Dales promoted in Stockport,WIGAN and Buxton plus Warrington sporadically and yes because of previous promoters ceasing. Heavy Rumours around the dressing rooms of Dales and Wryton agreement not a takeover

I think one big shift that happened was away from the heavyweights. Was this Mick , or was it simply anyone entertaining came over best on television.

For me 1960's Dales heavies were very weak compared to the the North.

You mention the travels of Marino , I would also suggest that Adrian Street matched him , learning the trade in the south , but once up and running really put himself about.

I don't deny though that McManus , Pallo , Logan , Kwango and others was a good mix.

But then again the north was probably ahead on Tag.

Royals , Black Diamonds , Dennisons against The Hells Angels and McManus and Logan.

1961 looks a good call. I just wonder at what pace were the public buying their first TV set.

I know as a boy our set only had BBC1 , and the ariels would not accommodate ITV and my dad got this booster box that suddenly doubled my choice.

Could it be that wrestling was waiting for a general TV boom.

These must be very early memories for me because I remember Billy Two Rivers and Ian Campbell coming over in 1959 , so we must have had ITV then. But I think we might have been one of the first to get that little box.

Just a quick piece of research and I can state it was to be 1962 before ITV got across all regions.

I have had a ramble , no clearer to me really except maybe that wrestling had to wait for a full ITV roll out.

Really Hack, you don't like the facts at all. Your attitude is clear through the disrespect with which you entitle a subsidiary thread to this about the most influential post-war British wrestling personality.

FACTS

British champions were northerners for most of the fifties.

McManus's tv appearances exploded from 1.1.61.

McManus was the most frequent tv wrestler of all time.

McManus demonstrated his authority in many other ways through the sixties and beyond,

I at no time have harped on about northerners. Chauvinism is the enemy of accurate analysis. I just mentioned the selfishness of E Riley and B Robinsons.

I at no time have called Royal or Maxine or Boscik or C Thomson Southerners. Hack's wildly inaccurate statements to the contrary do nothing to help unravel this interesting sixties about-change.

The active British champions at the end of the sixties were Dale Martin wrestlers who, per the rule that "the promoters" now imposed, travelled nationwide to show off their status. Bert Royal an exception but a very very active wrestler also for Dale Martins.

All of this is a remarkable turnaround in the course of less than nine years.

REASONS

We cannot be sure of anything but in my opinion it is clear that McManus, perhaps with his backers, was central to the above changes.

I also surmise that he held such power by virtue of being the central element of the tv contract that all JP promoters wanted and needed.

I also happen to think that McManus tried to be fair and businesslike and that he was the central promoter who had the power to impose the travelling-champion rule I mentioned above. And again, that power came from being central to the tv contract and having Kent Walton's ear.

Those fifties champions all appeared in Southern rings, the travelling-champion rule was already in place. But they were based in the north. Similarly, Boscik, Cortez, C Thomson and the rest travelled nationwide as champions ... from their Southern homes. I could estimate that these guys wrestled about four nights a month away from their bases.

There is no need to list out appearances by Dale Martin wrestlers outside of The South.

Hack is right about one point, however, (well done) that Marino is interesting. Marino so embraced the travelling-champion policy that he had a second home in Yorkshire as we have discussed.

What I also find impossible to know is to what extent these sixties changes were brought about, perhaps by McManus, just to redress the fifties title imbalance or whether he, maybe spurred on by the Dales, wanted real payback for the junior role Dale Martin had been required to play in 1953 Joint Promotions decisions.

The sixties changes clearly hurt, Hack is still squealing in denial. Peter Preston clearly wasn't enamoured with Mick's lead, either. And all the once mighty but now largely toothless Norman Morrell could do was to continue to build up Peter Preston churlishly on his own bills.

What a wonderful parallel universe we are seeing created. Repeating an opinion and ignoring facts does not create reality - Anglo Italian is starting to remind me of someone.

Maxine and Royal southerners would have come as a surprise to them. As a northerner at the time I didn't notice that we had lost them. Seems to me they worked nationwide, certainly not a sign of Dale Martins growing power. Northerners had worked the south since the 1930s, and even before that.

Zolly was southern based when he won the title in 1969. Where did he win it? Sheffield, on a Relwyskow & Green show. No sign of DM there.

Your adopted Clay Thomson won the middleweight title twice. The first time in Nottingham, a Ted Beresford show, the second in Paisley, a Peter Keenan show. No sign of DM there.

Marino is interesting. Returned to Joint in the 1966 merger. Beat Portz for the British title, Sheffield a Morrell show. Following his return Dale Martin continued to bill him as European champ until the 1971 unification match. Ended inconclusively but Marino relinquished his claim. So no sign of a power shift to Dale Martin there.

The one stand out is Alan Sergeant. Yes a DM man who won the title on a DM show in the 1960s.

One swallow doesn't make a Summer.

"It looks like Mick McManus had a new contract or role from 1.1.61 and things changed rapidly."

There's absolutely nothing to substantiate this at all.

Rather than hide this statement here please post in the appropriate thread where it can be given the consideration it deserves.

I agree. But all these on my list:

Zoltan Boscik, Clayton Thomson, Alan Sargeant (who really popped up from nowhere), Al Miquet, Goldbelt Maxine, Mike Marino, Jon Cortez.

were by late sixties Dale Martin stalwarts. Some were from overseas, some from the north, some from Paul Lincoln Promotions. But they were trusted late-sixties Dale Martin workers who were given their belts. The deal was they also had to wrestle with some regularity for the other Joint Promoters. When they couldn't hack that any more, it seems to me they had to lose their titles. Examples are Boscik and Sargeant who we have seen as champions at Belle Vue and elsewhere. Once they were no longer champions, they stopped travelling. I suspect the same holds true for Clayton, domiciled in Loughton NW London, but can't be 100% sure. I don't think his Exorcist wrestled much outside Dale Martin.

This rule about title-holders travelling seems to have been enforced to avoid the E Riley/B Joyce problem of non-travelling title-hoggers.

And sure, it was a decade-long mission to overturn the imbalance of that famous photo. Apologies if I expressed myself poorly. But Mick McManus, if he was indeed the driving force in Brixton, certainly achieved the goal by the end of the sixties.

These are all signs of the powershift. What I want to know is exactly what was going on. It looks like Mick McManus had a new contract or role from 1.1.61 and things changed rapidly.

Hmmmmm what you said, Anglo, was

"...Once the balance of JP power had swung dramatically in Dale Martin's favour in approx 1961, Dale Martin redressed the title imbalance, claiming control of nearly all of them through the sixties. Dale Martin wanted the titles all right and claimed them as soon as they had the power..."

It was, in fact, late 60's, not 1961, not claiming control of nearly all of them through the sixties, but late 60's.

I don't claim to have the in-depth knowledge of the Wrestling business that a lot of you lads do, but always thought that many of the names you mention, were brought into business by Northern Promoters, along with being based in the North.

Bert Royal was a Morrell man, or at least started his career with him? Zoltan arrived in the UK in Huddersfield and got his break through Ted Beresford or The Crabtree's, same with Al Miquet, I think?

Maxine, not sure, I would have guessed being introduced into the business by Buddy Ward via Billy Best Promotions, but I am unsure, as I said.

I have no doubt that Dale Martin enabled a lot of Wrestlers to earn very good money, by virtue of their booking of the lucrative southern area they controlled. I'm not sure that Dale Martin suddenly had control of who was awarded the belts, in the 1960's.

The fact that the Joint Promotions office was in Leeds, tells its own story.

As always, this is all just a bit of fun amongst old blokes who should know better!

That's true, Ron, but the great increase in tv bouts started when wrestling was in World of Sport, 1964. So Mick's 1961 explosion can fairly be compared with the preceding years.

Saxonwolf: I have not mentioned northern wrestlers. I have carefully referred to Dale Martin wrestlers throughout. So the Dale Martin brigade of British title holders by the close of 1969 had included Zoltan Boscik, Clayton Thomson, Alan Sargeant (who really popped up from nowhere), Al Miquet, Goldbelt Maxine, Mike Marino, Jon Cortez. Two, three non-Southerners brought disrepute through inactivity to the light-heavyweight and heavyweight titles, E. Riley and B. Robinson.

I do agree with you that during the sixties the British titles were held by non-DM wrestlers. What I have stated is that it was McManus's mission to turn this around and, as you yourself correctly state, by the end of the decade his mission had been accomplished. My question here, to repeat the thread title, is what kind of power permitted this significant change?

Colbeck, Breaks and Vic Faulkner had their European titles, but Norman seems not to have considered these as Crown Jewels. Similarly Kidd's world title.

Bert Royal was a Dale Martin wrestler for about half his time. He was most very definitely not to be pigeon-holed with the likes of Dempsey, Mel Rys, B. Joyce - just not dour enough.

But have a look at Bert Royal's long reign: yes, we dismiss Logan's and Pallo's title victories as fleeting but they remain very interesting. Firstly, two McManus trusties in some way rewarded. (Max Crabtree would later reward fellow Yorkshireman "Popular" Mick in a similar way.) But secondly, Bert could trust them not to be naughty in a way that Wiganites like the aforementioned E. Riley and B. Joyce had proved themselves to be untrustworthy and selfish where British titles were concerned. (And dour, too.)

Hack, I thought you had had that chip on your shoulder surgically removed after your last bruising when you whined about the Royal Albert Hall Tournament as being insignificant. Try to keep to facts and not a view of the world that you wish were true. Dale Martin Promotions thrived through the sixties and into the mid-seventies, maybe beyond, regardless of who the owners were, this is indisputable. And McManus's power flourished seemingly without limits. In a similar vein we have on here a thread entitled "The Privileges of Mick McManus" which illustrates many other manifestations of Mick's power. But I do sympathise with you, Hack, because you were in some way a victim of Dale Martin's gradual domination, having to content yourself with bogus Outlaws and the like on unregulated bills.

Note: "unregulated" is a gift to Hack on today's Liberation Day bank holiday.

Those 1950's years did not have as much TV wrestling if I remember rightly. So I suspect that does not mean that Mick had not jumped to prominence by then. In fact even in the late 1940's Mick was in favour and described as "The Speed Wizard"

SaxonWolf

"Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are actually saying."

I doubt it SaxonWolf.

SaxonWolf has broken the golden rule of all the threads that descend to this glorification of DM. He's resorted to reality and hard facts.

Of course there was no change in the balance of power in the 1960s. Talk about beauty being in the eyes of Anglo Italian.

And another inconvenient fact overlooked by Anglo ... the Abbeys and Martin sold Dale Martin Promotions to the Hurst Park syndicate in 1963.

Mike Marino is an interesting case, Bernard. As we know, he was highly regarded in the Dale Martin office, similar to Mick McManus, and both had belts that they kept for a long time.

The lineage appears to be Norman Walsh has his unfortunate car accident, the belt then appears to be with Geoff Portz for a short time, and then to Mike Marino, then to Scotland's Andy Robin and then back to Marino.

Maybe this was a reward to Mike Marino for his work away from the ring, in the office.

But to answer your question, no, I don't see Morrell giving it up if his wrestler is still active.

Hi Sax. As an offshoot, I need an opinion.

Do you think that Mike Marino would have been allowed to take the mid heavy weight title if Norman Walsh hadn't had his car crash?

I think it unlikely at that time that Morrell would have allowed it to happen.

Especially as some people say that Morrell created the weight category for his wrestler.

"...Once the balance of JP power had swung dramatically in Dale Martin's favour in approx 1961, Dale Martin redressed the title imbalance, claiming control of nearly all of them through the sixties. Dale Martin wanted the titles all right and claimed them as soon as they had the power..."

Eh?, you will have to give us a bit more information here, Anglo, as I am not sure which titles you mean?, the British titles (Mount-Evans)?

They were held by Northern Wrestlers throughout most of the 1960's and through to the end of the TV era, in many cases. The obvious exception being Mike Marino holding the British Light-Heavyweight title for a long, long time.

Using your reference point of Dale Martin taking all the titles from 1961, which titles are you talking about?

British Lightweight Title

Jim Breaks and Alan Miquet traded this one in the 1960's until Jon Cortez, 1970.

British Welterweight Title

Jack Dempsey until 1966, then Alan Sargeant for a short while.

From 1968 onwards, Northern wrestlers.

British Middleweight Title

All Northern wrestlers apart from McManus in 1967.

British Heavy-Middleweight Title

Apart from Pallo for a few weeks in 1969 and Steve Logan for a few months in 1975, all Northern Wrestlers.

British Light-Heavyweight Title

All Northern Wrestlers.

British Mid-Heavyweight Title

Mike Marino for a few months in 1966 and then continuously from 1969 onwards.

British Heavyweight Title

All Northern Wrestlers.

To me, it looks like lads aligned to Morrell, Beresford and De Relwyskow kept hold of the belts.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are actually saying.