RAMSGATE

Agree Paul, I seem to remember when I watched Billy on TV that Kent Walton said he was from Denton. Could have had a handful of years there.

Billy born 1938 and lived at 134 Oldham Road in 1939 , that part very much Ancoats. Some reports say he was born in Oldham ,that is wrong. But you don't have to go far to be in Oldham , Failsworth would qualify.

And on Anglo's point , Bob Robinson was a Wiganer whilst Billy's grandad was from Miles Platting, it would have to be a bit of a distant relationship , and why not come clean on it , something to be proud of all round.

Still you never know with wrestling.

We're in danger of getting too complex. The basic point I have been pushing was that choosing the name Joyce was odd. If he latger had to switch names in Ramsgate it just goes to prove it was a duff decision.

The fact he was really a Bob Robinson pre-dating Bill Kenton-Robinson seems just to be a big coincidence.

But I have learnt not to trust wrestling coincidences.

If they really were both Robinsons, shouldn't we be asking whether they were related?

Ron I wonder how you made the Denton connection and by the way the Robinsons occasionally were billed from Denton so I at first came to that conclusion ,then I remembered that Billy was originally billed from Shudehill which as you know is a tiny district within Manchester city centre where incidentally Wryton had a sub office base in the Swan With two nicks on Shudehill incidentally a pub owned by Wryton director called Ken who had a retail organisation called Kentons.I wonder if any bills showing Billy from Shudehill,I discussed this with the old Wryton driver who confirmed my memories.One thing is cast iron Billy was William Alfred Robinson.

https://www.wrestlingheritage.co.uk/apps/photos/

1952 , 1956, 1957-1959 and 1960 onwards added today.

AS the years went by advertising went lazy. It fell to just the top of the bill being named and then "Support Bouts" Even worse it went years showing "Four Great Bouts"

What a way to sell your product. It would not have got me there. I picked up the Manchester Evening News every night and if there was a suitable show with my favorite wrestlers then I went. If it looked a poor card then No Chance.

Yes Ron I think you are on the right track. That's what I meant by "it was at the promoter's discretion" i.e. if Ken & Doug Joyce were there regularly, the local promoter may have thought another Joyce showing up would've confused the fans. Therefor suggested Billy used another name.

But I am just making assumptions.

Bob Robinson in Ramsgate was not a one off , I think he had to use his real name here as Doug and Ken were here so often. It stopped confusion.

Tomorrow I will be coming forwards in years with more Ramsgate Galleries.

If the Billy Joyce Promoter that went to USA promoted wrestling in Lancs and Yorks then Billy Riley would have known of him , I think for sure. So Riley would be a good man to suggest to Bob Robinson that he needs a Good Name for Wrestling.

On the Kenton Issue , I have proved before that he did not start with one and change to another , it was certain promoters that was the variable.

I think some of these old promoter guys met that many people , that some could only remember their names by Nicknames , or maybe not their gimmick but their real name.

So down in Ramsgate , Bob Robinson was such a used name away from the fans , that was the way it was thought of when the promoter phones the card through to the press.

It would not be a shock to me if Bill Robinson lived in Denton in the late 50's and young Bill from Denton got confused to Kenton , and it worked.

Devils advocate of course , I am only here for the fun.

No, I'm not trying to be funny. As Ron says, we've been around this block before.

And we established that Billy Robinson wrestled originally as Bill Kenton.

Following the usual pattern where someone starts out with their real name and then moves on to a ring name when, perhaps, the publicity kicks in, you would think that Kenton had been his real name.

If this wrestler moved from ring name to start later to use his real name - well surely that's a first, isn't it? If he had a hairdresser's, Paul, it would be no surprise if he cashed in on his wrestling fame to call it by his ring name. After all, Pallo commercialised Jackie Pallo shirts and not Jack Gutteridge ones.

I love your 1935 Billy Joyce research, Ron. It fits in with so much that we know. And even links with the Bill Kenton thing.

Wrestling was much more closely linked with boxing through the thirties and forties. Lots of UK wrestlers took on names of the great American boxers of the time: Joe D'Orazio, Jack Dempsey ... maybe Billy "Sugar Ray" Robinson.

None of which resolves Ron's fruit trading research. McManus changed his name by deed-poll in 1965. Maybe he wasn't the first. Maybe Bill Kenton did the same?

It's just so weird that Billy Joyce's real name was Robinson. Am I right in saying that the two were friends? (Presumably not all the Wiganites were best buddies...)

I would be interested in Anglo's evidence that he was not Billy Robinson.

I say he lived at 134 Oldham Road as a boy which was handy for his dad working as a Fruit Trader I think on Smithfield Market.

Even Grandad was a Fruit Trader at 213 Oldham Road Miles Platting a generation before.

That's my take on it. I think we have done this before .

Erm ok I'll bite Anglo are you saying William Alfred was not Robinson and the ladies hairdressers name was a psudonym?

I may have spotted a reason Anglo. It's a newspaper letter in 1935 with some info.

It doesn't really matter if he used the name Joyce in 1939, it was still well after the established Harry Joyce's entry into wrestling. An unusual lady's name to choose as your ring name. I say he filched it from Harry. Let's face it, he could have called himself anything. Why Joyce?

Maybe the Joyce family warned him off using their name as they developed to a fifties threesome; and then Billy Robinson warned him off using the name Robinson in the late fifties. Which of course wasn't even Billy Robinson's real name.

It's all very odd.

.

Reading the A-Z for Bobby Barnes , he had a baptism of fire in 1958 when he turned pro facing McManus and Pallo in the first few weeks.

This can't be far off his debut

Yes I'll agree with that Ron, it does look like Billy Joyce. My disagreement is that Joyce only picked up the name later on.

The reason I questioned Anglo (other than it always giving me so much fun to question Anglo) is that years ago I read (probably in the wrestler or a programme, neither of which are reliable) that Bob Robinson chose a new name because there was already a wrestler called Bob Robinson. I've searched and asked but Joe, Jack or Butcher apart, have found no evidence of another wrestler existing.

The mystery is why an established Billy Joyce would be billed as Bob Robinson in Ramsgate.

This 1957 bill suggests that Bob Robinson , master craftsman was from Wigan.

Sure looks like Billy , but I don't trust wrestling.

Stay with it Anglo. Bob Robinson used the name Billy Joyce from the start. Lancashire leads the way, and here he is in Preston in August, 1939.

When Billy Joyce was well established in 1951 why should we think a Bob Robinson in Ramsgate was Billy Joyce?

Will Cozzi was a big boxing promoter , many of which spotted that you can make money wrestling as wrestlers could perform almost every night.

Cozzi had also been a nine stone boxer as far back as 1915 , originally from Clerkenwell but based in Dover.

Looking forward to going through this Ron. Will Cozzi also promoted at Canterbury (Cavalry Theatre) only recently became aware of him.

As for the Joyce/Robinson billing, i'm not sure we'll understand it, unless it was at the discretion of the local promoter. You can find Billy Joyce on bills from the late 30's.

Just spotted something that happened at Ramsgate at the end of 1952.

Much discussed , the relationship between Devereaux and Dale Martins but maybe never quite understood.

Here we go , after 4 years of Dale Martins at the Coronation Ballroom , for three shows their name suddenly goes missing from the bills. As soon as we get to New Year , we have Devereaux , same Roster of Wrestlers. Could it be that they were an agent.

An agent is the only answer I can think of.

I know this has puzzled Anglo.

https://www.wrestlingheritage.co.uk/apps/photos/album?albumid=16232625

I have added the 1940's for Ramsgate.

It shows that after the war Will Cozzi was the promoter handing over to Percy Pitman before Dale Martins took over in 1949.

There is already a gallery for the 1930's