REVENGE OF THE MASKED PACHYDERM!!

Not sure what this tells us but I have 1960 , our friend The Pachyderm working for Wryton.

I guess you know Arthur S Howe was Black Butcher Johnson.

The Monster was usually Jim Green. Monster was regular tag partner of Coverdale's Ghoul.

Here's a strange one, Arthur S Howe promoting Tottenham in 1963 (using Paul Lincoln's Empire Hackney programme template) with a Ghoul:

Here's another Coverdale alias, this time as a Monster (that is, if you believe the notes on this programme):

Just adding in some more Ghoul appearances:

Coverdale working for R&G in 1958:

Here's The Ghoul at the Curzon in Liverpool, October 1959:

An early independent Ghoul, from 1960, and he's on with yet another Tarzan

I have read that Marty Jones wrestled under a mask as "El Olympico", but can't find any real evidence of it. If he really did, then I would imagine it would have been when he visited Mexico in the early 70's, as I can't think why he would ever do that in the UK?, he was always a bill topper.

One other point, is that I think that picture is of a random masked wrestler, because I don't ever remember Marty being as muscular as that. Could be my memory playing tricks of course.

MM in the bill on page 1,with The Pachyderm fighting Ernest Baldwin, at Kirby-in-Ashfield, Please can you tell me the year?

It might be that the promoter was exaggerating with the claim for Ernie.( never happens!)

Felix Kerschitz was billed and fought to defend his European title against E. B. twice at Newcastle in 1953.

Hi MM.

That's interesting. The body looks like Bomber as The Ghoul, but the head looks different.

Maybe a bit taller and thinner. But similar.

However the A-Z says that Bomber died in 1961.

Here is a "Ghoul" from 1954 also at the Isle of Man:

In reply to Main Mask , most newspapers in this country are subscription and Ost , you are bang on. O'Shea (Jefferson) was a great mate of Bomber Bates , and seemingly as soon as Bates dies O'Shea uses another Ghoul for about the next five years , almost as though it was a tribute.

The copycat thing is cloudy because Jack Cassidy uses a Ghoul as did Don Robinson in the north east , and Conrad Davies in the Midlands. Could all of them be Coverdale , I don't know.

But O'Shea toured Ireland with a team and some nights he had a Ghoul and other nights he had Coverdale on his shows all on the same tour.

Also possible Jim Lewis and Danny Flynn may have used a Ghoul and also Knowles Peters.

Paul Lincoln also had a Ghoul working for him in the mid 60's

A clear challenge is to find a 1957 Ghoul bill , but for sure 1958-1961 Bates was working mainly Manchester area , one suspects , at an easier pace.

Late 50's would've been when Bates was helping to train other wrestlers for Sean O'Shea, don't you think?

My own memory is of a newspaper exposè about 1967 about Nagasaki. The other wrestlers all apparently hated him. What I recall is that "they" placed a pot of urine over the dressing room door and this then fell on him when he returned after his bout. Maybe it was just good publicity for the boy who had yet to appear on tv.

I'd love to see that article again after 50+ years.

We talk about press exposès. But the Sunday press just fed off wrestling every week.

Such was the appeal.

Hi Bernard , The People series was over several week in July and August 1965.

It was a complete exposure of wrestling being a work.

One week they named many masked men and others with their alias's such as Streiger and Cassidy.

The Ghoul talks of the Globe Stadium at Old Trafford that i mentioned in the Manchester series.

Here is what he said and one of several bills at that venue to give you a feel for it.

The Globe had been a Cinema but before that a Tram Shed. I often think about it when I pass on the trams these days.

Hi Ron.That is interesting about " The People" publishing an article about Bates in July 1965.

Did you see it ? and can you please tell me what it said?

James ......Glad to help, but most of that memory has faded now. You need to thank Hack, I'm always asking him to find an old post of mine. It's easier for me if he can help and he always does.

Thanks Hack.

Here is some more to digest.

Hack asked how it came about that the public found Bates was the ghoul.

Answer , it was revealed in "The People" July 1965.

So we have Bates taking eleven months out after his 1952 injury.

I now find after September 1956 it was to be April 1958 (18 months) after leaving Joint before I can find him again. So I believe another break.

Strangely enough as soon as he works again he is working with Mike McGurn (Derek Oldham)

From what I can see , Joint Promotions never used another Ghoul.

Another quest , is can we find a copy Ghoul before 1961 when Bates dies. I am not so sure we can.

So did Coverdale only become a Ghoul after Bates died.

Whatever MM has to tell us about The Pachyderm may of course be a different matter.

Fascinating stuff.

Further to my post of yesterday , I have been doing some further tracking of the Ghoul who worked for Morrell and Relwyskow. From what I can see The Ghoul finished at Newcastle in September 1956 and also ceased at regular places Aberdeen , Dundee , Glasgow, Morecambe and Liverpool (Best promotions)

After that date all these regular venues were without any Ghoul and I see no attempt at these big venues to replace him.

Le Ghoule was never meant to be a copy or deception of the spectators , and was always advertised as such.

The Pachyderm is up for grabs and there was possibly more than one.

Did Bomber Bates do that 1958 stint at Colne for Billy Riley as the Pachyderm.

I think any copying of the Ghoul came after Bomber Bates moved to the Independents. The next question is if he was even copied at all whilst he still worked or was it just later after his death.

Just over a year ago we talked of Bate's last match on a big thread that lead to his unmasking and I put on quite a few bills 1958-1961 of the Ghoul in the Indy's in the Manchester area. I am pretty confident all these are Bates and these guys were his circle of friends.

https://heritagedocs.wixsite.com/talkwrestling/forum/memories-of-the-old-days/the-ghoul-s-last-match/p-2

Okay Bernard, Just for you. Even if you have said we are no way forward when I uncover yet another name for you that no one has heard of. That's progress. I've even corrected a spelling mistake for you!

Bernard Hughes

First of all it was not the night described in “The Wrestling”. It must have been later in the year or the following year, and it was not raining. Now I have to confess that I cannot be certain that it was Bill Coverdale, but as he was the normal impostor in the Southern area and because he was of a similar build, I would guess that it was. As soon as I saw the mask ,I knew that it was not the real one. Others around me were also commenting that this was not “The Ghoul”. This man was shorter,weaker looking, bit of a belly and definitely not as menacing. However a lot of what followed seemed to be following the normal script. In the first round after much running and evading by the masked man, Assirati got on a single leg boston. The mask got himself well and truly entangled in the ropes and would not let go. The referee (can't remember who he was) broke them up and dislodged the man in the mask from the ropes. Coverdale, if it was him, rolled under the bottom rope and fell heavily on the floor. Two seconds or assistants helped him to the dressing room and the announcer declared that as the masked man was injured accidentally ,he had to declare it a “No contest” This was obviously pre-planned and disappointing.The crowd were not pleased, but nothing apart from a little shouting. I watched Assirati and thought that he would say or do something to show his displeasure but nothing happened.. He had put his gown on and made his way to the dressing rooms. This was Assirati, but not the Assirati that I saw in the 1949-50 time. Then he seemed more vicious , now he seemed to accept what had just happened. Had he mellowed or just fallen in line with the promoter's wishes? An easy nights work. If it was not Bill Coverdale under the mask, then I offer my apologies.

Hi Ron, no I can't really remember this stoppage in The Ghoul's visits to Newcastle, but it did happen as you say.

17/5/52 drew 1-1 with Geoff Portz.

Next one was

18/4/53 Ko - ed Jim Hussey.

Once again as you said.

Thanks for trying Hack, no further forward.

Ron I will take a look and let you know.

James -I have written about this before. I know Hack is busy on his project, but he may be able to find my post later.

If not I will wrack my brains to give you a brief summary.

For anyone interested and in particular Main Mask I have been looking at the Ghouls injury.

He goes missing just after the middle of May 1952 with one or two cancelled shows no doubt due to injury. Can't actually find a likely bout where he was fighting Derek Oldham , who went on after this with a push and actually fought Ernie Baldwin for the title.

For the most part The Ghoul is out for eleven months , coming back mid/late April 1953. First two bouts I can see are a nice safe pair of hands in Jim Hussey.

Exceptions.

In September 1952 I found Ghoul fighting Mike McGurn , Bolton , but this was on an index , not in the papers. It would have been an Indy show and at that time Bolton had no regular wrestling. The year could be wrong , the bill looks late 50's to me as Mike McGurn was Derek Oldham , who used the alias after he had finished with Joint.

Also in September 1952 I found Vic Hessle fighting a Ghoul in the Isle of Man ,but it was a bill and not a report. Did he show or was it a stunt. Did it happen.

One thing comes out of all this ......In an eleven month absence there is no sign that anyone regular was standing in for him. Wonder if Bernard remembers missing the Ghoul for about a year.

You could even interpret this bill as not being "The Ghoul" and just " A Ghoul"

Clever promoting from Bob Sicock.

Bernard

Were you at the Merry Fiddlers for the Assirati -Ghoul match then? There are so many stories about what happened. Can you tell us please?

I won't ignore you Bernard. I won't be much help but at least you won't be ignored.

Black Mallard. This is the third attempt you've made at unmasking him. This time no more successful than the other two. In fact this match against The Ghoul is the only one I can find - maybe he was set up just for the defeat.

Le Ghoule - nope, he's just as much a mystery. Best guess is he wasn't French.

The Phantom is more interesting. Presumably not Emerald Phantom who came a few years later. This Phantom was around 1951-3. Only seems to be in the south, often on with Garfield and Marino though there were other opponents. Was not unbeatable, seemed to lose regularly. Unconfirmed report his name was Herbert Randell.

No I don't know Herbert Randell!

I accept that you boys are on a quest, but can anyone help me with the identities of the 3 masked men queried in my post yesterday, please?

Have we got a date Ost , only there were two of these (that's a surprise)

Here is the Bearded Monarch:

What's this I see on Le Ghoul v Rowland s bill? Dr Death's uncle?

Have a great 2020 everyone

MY first observation of Hack's spreadsheet.

After the war the Ghoul popped up only on Morrell shows and Relwyskow Shows. This started May 1948 or a little earlier.

For the next 18 months Bomber Bates only worked for Wryton and by 1950 ceases to work as Bates , quite possibly for evermore.

The Wryton work does look more and more part time. No doubt the demands of a great gimmick meant the end for Bates.

Thus far 1948-1951 I see little sign that anyone out there was copying the gimmick.

The term "pachyderm" was used a lot in the newspapers as a derogatory description of wrestlers in the early part of the 20th century. I think it's quite amusing that the promoters turned it around and made a wrestler out of this jab and seemingly drew some money with it.

Thanks Adrian and Ost for your replies. Yes to the Bearded Monarch photo and your Ghoulish record is in your email as you celebrate New Year down under, we still have a few hours to wait. Great additions adding to our Pachyderm picture Main Mask. We are getting somewhere there even if we don't know who he was.

Be patient Main Mask. You're right to ask the question about the Ghoul injury but you'll have to wait a week or so. I've got other Heritage priorities over the next few days but will get on with the record next week.

My last post was a definite move towards doubting that The Ghoul and Pachyderm were the same wrestler and that the word was used as a descriptor; a Ghoul of 20 stones could be described as elephantine. What makes me doubt it is that the disclosure would only make sense if the Colne fans were familiar with the Pachyderm masked wrestler, but they weren't as he hadn't appeared of there. So we do have to seriously doubt the previous assumption brought on by the Colne advert.

I agree with your latest assertition that Coverdale took over the Ghoul mantle following Bates - doesn't this contradict your previous post that Coverdale substituted for Bates from the 1950's onwards. Or did I misunderstand you?

But as you've brought up unanswered questions you have three times avoided the question from Ron and myself of who Bartelli unmasked.

Ron discovered our pre war Ghoul some time ago, definitely not Bates. We've known about LeGhoule for some time Bernard but not enough for an entry, though that will change soon. I think Ron suggested a Relwyskow connection some time back. These results show that to be right, all but one matches in Hull must be telling. The Ghoul appears twice in Hull during his period. Once he was on the same bill as LeGhoule, on the other it is stipulated that "This is not LeGhoule." So there was no attempt at deception.

We can also see how busy Bates was until mid 1948 until The Ghoul takes over, suggesting Bates was the Ghoul by 1948. A couple of dates with Bates and the Ghoul appearing in different halls simultaeneously. Possibly another Ghoul, or a cautionary reminder that none of these can be taken with 100% accuracy, someometimes wrestlers were advertised but didn't appear, or maybe just a mistake has crept in the years that have passed.

No sign of The Pachyderm yet.

Worth noting from the stats that the pre war Ghoul was Oakleys and he was tall and thin.

You could say all others were copies of Oakeley's idea.

Oakeley's main big guy was Jack Baltus who wrestled as Carver Doone. It's a possibility Oakeley brought him back as the Ghoul

Thanks for that Hack.

After just a quick whip through the results, I found three masked(?) opponents who I can't see in the A-Z.

Do we know who the following were?

Black Mallard

The Phantom

and Le Ghoule.??That reminds me that someone signed Jimmy Purvis' autograph book as

La Ghoule right back in 1948-9. Interesting.

To clarify one thing, the word "pachyderm" means a thick-skinned animal. Thus it covers elephants, rhinos and hippos.

To make it worse , here is a very late Le Ghoul

I found a poster with Coverdale billed as 23st 6. How heavy was the Ghoul or the Pachyderm in billing?

Well it does seem odd if the Colne bills don't indicated The Ghoul and Pachyderm are one and the same, which we had previously believed, unless of course promoters are just using the word to desrcibe The Ghoul, quite possible. I'm starting to believe that might be the case. If the promoters were saying The Ghoul was The Pachyderm then we would expect the Colne fans to know the Pachyderm. However, the Pachyderm does not seem to have appeared at Colne prior to Ron's find. And then I came across this, first time in Colne for The Pachyderm - four years later

But I am not convinced by the argument that Coverdale was substituting for Bates as The Ghoul in 1954. That's much earlier than has been suggested previously. If I understand Main Mask's argument correctly he is not just saying Coverdale was a Ghoul but "It seems to me that COVERDALE Substituted for THE GHOUL when BATES was Injured or Unavailable!-Probably as far back as 1950." But if there was as much physical difference as both Bernard and MM say then the fans would be able to see through that.

This is the third time we have discussed these Ghoul related matters. We have made progress but if we are to rely on more than hunches or guesses we need further ground. I've made a start and begun to document matches for Ghoul/Bates/Coverdale/Pachyderm/Le Ghoule. It's a big job, completed up to 1952.

It's too big a document to add to the forum but can be found here.

Hopefully anyone interested can use it to further our discussion.

I'll get on with the rest, but it's unlikely to be before next week. Time for you boys to digest.

Email if you would like your own copy of the document.

By the way MM, Coverdale was shorter and more flabby than Bates.

If you had seen both of them, you would be able to tell the difference.

Yes I saw Bill Coverdale, both with no mask at Newcastle and I believe that I saw him as The Ghoul at the Merry Fiddlers.(In fact I am sure it was Coverdale)

I never saw nor have heard of The Pachyderm , before this thread.

I agree with Ron, the more you think you know, the less you actually know.

And from 12-18, I was not capable of interpreting fully just what was going on.

The thing about the Pachyderm , is that I don't think you will find him working fro Morrell or Relwyskow.

Bartelli did a lot of unmaskings to build his reputation and it was a great gimmick anyway , but I think all of them were done with Wryton where Bartelli was known to be influential.

The Pachyderm at Colne where I have several bills was brought in by Billy Riley.

It is not possible to be sure if it was Bates or that the same man was behind the mask in both 1954 and 1958.

The fact was that the idea worked so they used it.

I would have thought many wrestlers would have confirmed that Bates was the Ghoul in Bernard's time , so many that we can't now trace it back to a witness.

Certainly a debate for the purists.

Coverdale was only ever a copy.

Well I have been undriven mad thanks to the above. I mentioned six months ago that Billy Robinson was not his real name but I don't think I was believed. Here he pops up again at last as Bill Kenton. This time I won't forget.

Black Mask was George Nuttall, not Bert.

The references I've heard of Coverdale being the Ghoul have been from the late 1950s when Bates was on the way out.

Why would you think this 1954 Ghoul was Coverdale MM? That's at least four years earlier than previously considered.

Who was the man allegedly unmasked by Bartelli?

As Ron says, none of us know, it is all guesswork plus the nonsense the promoters told us.

Did we ever find evidence that Bates was the Ghoul. It's been talked about for years, long before Heritage, but is there any written reference?

Then Ron mentions Le Ghoule.

Is this why we love wrestling? Or why it drives us mad?

Then there is the son of the Ghoul.

What we don't know is when Coverdale ever put a mask on.

On the surface 1954 seems a bit early from what we know.

But when it comes to wrestling , what do we actually know.

After all the name of the game in the background has always been DECEPTION.

Throw in Le Ghoule and it makes it even worse.

Le Ghoule seemed to reign 1948-1952 but I think crops up again a lot later on the Indy's.

We have no record of him ever being unmasked.

Bomber Bates has proved confusing enough on his own, add in at least one other wrestler and a couple of masks and we are totally befuddled.

Here's my understanding.

The Ghoul and the Pachyderm in the 1960s were one and the same, evidenced by Ron's cuttings. As we know Bates was the Ghoul we presume that in 1954 Bates was also The Pachyderm.

Following Bates the Ghoul role was taken over by Bill Coverdale. I remember Tony Francis was one that confirmed this, Tommy Hanson was another, but I had been aware of it for years.

The Pachyderm was unmasked as Bill Coverdale by Ray Hunter on a Paul Lincoln show on 14th April 1962 at Edgeware Road. I can find no other Pachyderms after that.

Main mask says Bartelli unmasked Pachyderm. There are lots of instances of Pachyderm continuing after this, a few at Kirby in Ashfield where he was unmasked by Bartelli.

So it seems both Bates and Coverdale were both The Ghoul and The Pachyderm

Thus far I think just as there was a copy of the Ghoul , this 1960 Pachyderm was also a copy.

Waiting to hear who the 1958 copy was that Bartelli unmasked.

Very interesting stuff indeed.

We have talked about Bates a lot and more or less sorted him out.

I think Hack might be able to confirm the Pachyderm , it was someone he talks to that confirmed it.

However , another bit of history we don't know is about Coverdale himself.

We seem to have no hard evidence when he first put a mask on.

Yes , into the sixties after the Ghoul finished with Joint and soon after died , we know that Coverdale was a pretty good replacement. There has always been a mystery about Le Ghoule who may have been Coverdale running side by side with Bates , but we don't know.

Hoping we can make sense of all this .....typical of wrestling

I thought we had established that the Ghoul and the Pachyderm were one and the same.

I also think one of the wrestlers confirmed this. Hack might remember.