Something Ghoulish for Bernard:

And just to show you another Black Angel , I will speculate that when he found out that the name had been used before , he changed the name.

I would think this Black Angel must be Grant Fodderingham , better known as The Black Panther.

Thank for your input Ron.

I'm sure that Hack or Anglo will be able to tell us if there was ever an article on The Black Angel

.He didn't even get into the "Top 20 masked men".

I saw Sandy Orford quite a few times at Newcastle but that was after his "Angel" days.

I get the impression we have never had a major forum topic on Orford/Black Angel.

It would be a new one for me , not sure if he finished unbeaten. They reckon Bartelli was glad to be rid of the mask for other reasons than just TV opportunity.

Maybe (I am guessing) Orford or the Promoter wanted him to remain unbeaten so a way out was "I'll unmask if I fail in my quest" I have seen this before along with throwing money to the audience if I don't win etc.

I have another theory for you , that is that it was a copycat of Black Mask in 1939.

Ben Sherman was going home , possibly because war was looming , so he had a £20 challenge match with Jack McLaughlan and also would unmask if he failed to win. It was a six round draw and Black Mask (original version) was revealed to be Sherman.

Nothing new in wrestling so a good example of an idea that could be copied.

Ironically a more modern day Black Mask popped up with a good run.

Hi Ron. Not wishing to sidetrack, but your post raised another mystery for me.

Did we ever find out why Sandy Orford unmasked after a draw?

Never tiring of analysing the Ghoul , I know we had a big thread exploring his last match , and recently Main Mask mentioned his Newcastle debut in June 1948 , I thought I would look for his first match.

My theory is that he was almost immediately invented to replace The Black Angel and the earliest I can find him is not with Morrell but with Relwyskow.

Love it if somebody can beat this date.

I am not just a pretty face! ( that leaves me open to some comments!)

Perhaps, at the time, I should have said an American-Italian accent.

Because of the circumstances at the time I did remember that.

At least it goes with the fake Italian accent Bernard wrote about.

Thanks Hack, I had forgotten all about this. So in effect, they were building a "Phantom of the Opera" back-story for The Ghoul.

Good looking young pianist, goes to war, horrific injuries in an explosion and comes back, under a mask, aggressive and vengeful.

We included this some years back, and Bernard doubted it was Bates then too. Here's the article

Just a thought. Does the date of that photo come anywhere near the time that Derek Oldham put Bates out of action for a while ?

Interesting theory Ron!

Ever the detective , I have a few comments and a loose theory.

Some of you will remember that before the war Oakeley had his own Ghoul and Bates would almost have certainly known of the gimmick as that Ghoul did the Free Trade Hall and New Brighton Tower.

However I am thinking maybe the Bomber Bates Ghoul came from another idea.

Up to about 1947 a 1943 film was doing the rounds at the pictures. It was called The Mad Ghoul. It starred George Zucco who actually , like Bates was from Manchester.

The Ghoul in this film however did not wear a mask . just a pale face.

The film did feature some piano playing.

Could this be the reason for the musical connection in the programme..

Hi Sax. I agree that is curious. Also why say "Undefeated as yet in Europe"?

Why not just say "Undefeated"?

Thanks Mr Ost. I'll have to take your word for it. Just a doubt in my mind.

Maybe page 8 will help.

Can anyone explain the drawings of piano playing and an orchestra?, what is the connection to Wresting and The Ghoul?

Hi and thank you Mr Ost. Can you please tell me the date of that publication?

I think that may be the Bill Coverdale version.

I don't think that its tall enough for John Bates and too podgy.

However if it's late in Bates career, he may have put weight on and become more stooped.

Wonderful isn't it. It could almost be Mal Kirk in a mask. The sinister crouch and stoop . that short powerful neck , even the way he holds his hands almost as though they are claws.

This was a Golden era before the Golden era , so sorry I missed it , but on here we get the next best thing.

many thanks Ost.