From what I can gather by reading the posts on here I'd say most of you are what I'd call wrestling purists with an impressive knowledge base and a love of this great 'sport'. The question I'd like to ask is did any of you actually enjoy a Big Daddy bout? or like me did you find the whole farce an insult to your intelligence and an insult to wrestling that kept better wrestlers out of the limelight and made some great stars look like fools?
I certainly don't want a keyboard fight with anyone who enjoyed a Daddy match, just interested as to what it was you enjoyed?
I can be quite scathing towards wrestlers who annoyed me and while I had no time or interest for the likes of The Royal Bros or Johnny Saint I could certainly see the appeal some would find in the squeaky clean Royal/Faulkner getting his butt kicked by the bad guy and then fighting his way back to victory and in Johnny Saint's case I can see that he was an amazing technician and I understand that many would appreciate that. But The Big Daddy pantomime leaves me cold, in my opinion he offered absolutely nothing to wrestling and was partly responsible to its downfall. If you disagree that's fine but what was it you enjoyed?
He also had some other finishers back then such as a necklift/hangman (a submission in the chokeslam position) and an over the shoulder backbreaker. He would also stomp fallen opponents and boot them in the back of the shoulders after a posting.
Can anyone recall what method/methods Shirley's early 1970s knock outs took? i.e splash, forearm smash, back elbow, the double elbow? The double elbow began as a pinning technique that later changed to a knock out speciality.
I didn't say they were preparing him to replace Kendo, I said they were building the Guardsman up generally as a main event heavyweight monster heel,but he wasn't being built up as Kendo fodder either as that only became a possibility at short notice in Jan '73.
Assuming David is right about Crabtree being prepared by Morrell as a main eventer to fill a Kendo void I wonder if that caused more tension between Morrell and Dales.
Not that I'm aware of Mark, but others may know better.
does that footage still exist? Be fascinated to see it!
The first time I saw Shirley when he returned to Joint was when he made his tv debut and knocked out Pat Curry in the first round. At that stage I found him interesting. Two more quick tv wins and he was starting to become predictable. I remember towards the end of 1972 at Belle Vue and a group of fans who went to far more shows than me said it was the same everywhere and they had lost interest in him. The three quick tv wins did set us up for that first Nagasaki tv match which I did look forward to and was happy to see Nagasaki knock him out.
Like others (I'm sure) I've checked the Daddy/Elijah bout on Youtube.
Indeed, a good bout.
And Shirley could wrestle.
Yes I've seen it. I was reading the comments on the thread which suggest that even those moves were relatively limited. I am willing to accept that. Haystacks at his size could hardly have a lot of moves and as Daddy grew, you limit your body's range. But its a great pity there is no footage of him in earlier days.
Wouldn't it have been interesting if he'd learned more moves and kept off the extra weight, maintaining more of that original strong physique, as he returned to wrestling. But I can't see he'd have got away with the Big Daddy gimmick and popularity by doing so.
One final piece of Crabtree information possibly never been mentioned before.
Brian Crabtree made his debut on 9th October 1959 somewhere in Birmingham and beat Jim Sherry. This was reported in the Halifax Evening Courier such was the standing of the Crabtree name in the town at that time. Brother Max was also on the bill.
While I fully understand why people did not like Big Daddy matches, personally I found some of them entertaining, even though they were predictable. At my local venue one August Bank Holiday weekend, the place was sold out - it was standing room only - and the atmosphere was ELECTRIC!!! Never saw it like that again.
When Daddys music started up, the noise was deafening. Daddy marched around the outside of the ring, shaking hands with everybody he could and he even lifted up one little girl and put his top hat on her - I can still see her smile now!
I saw Daddy being partnered by many different wrestlers such as Steve Grey, Kid McCoy, Ian McGregor etc. What other bout could you see Danny Collins slap King Kong Kirk around the face? In my opinion, good entertainment.
As a side note, my Dad got me interested in wrestling as a young boy and it was he who took me to watch it live and I was hooked. When my father died two years ago, we were not sure what music to have at his funeral (as he was not big on music) so I suggested ' WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED'.
Brought back many happy memories and still does!
was he believable, did he ever have mentality to be a wrestler
It would appear that Shirley became the European champion on this night. Note it is a Jack Taylor Promotion.
Shirley won this bout with two straight falls which seems generous indeed from Martinson.
Fall one from an Airplane spin and the second quickly after before he could recover with a body splash and pin.
Within a month Shirley was back at the Shay again against American KIller Jack Scanlon.
It may not have been Joint Promotions , but done in his Hometown , it does seem to have been another peak in Shirley's career long before Big Daddy. Very much reminds me of the Formula for Doug Clark beating Gerstmans in the early 1930's. At this stage you could say , maybe he did the right thing leaving Joint.
Just for the record , I found it was June 6th 1959 that Shirley was declared the heavyweight Champion of Britain (alternative version). The match was at Leicester Granby Halls against Ed Bright. Shirley actually gave over a stone away and was 19st2lbs at the time.
Here he is that night with Brother Max. Almost sure it was a Jack Taylor Promotion. Bright Shoulder charged Crabtree several times in the third and then pinned him. Round four Crabtree threw Bright with a cross buttock and pinned him.
Shirleys winner in the 5th was an overhead bodyslam and press.
They stuck a belt on him and it was 10 minutes to get through the crowd back to the dressing rooms.
Okay I found the note, from early December 1953:
“Fans were informed Shirley Crabtree had left wrestling to return to rugby league”
Good to read you again, David.
I got abuse for saying this several years ago, but there are some good little nuggets in those matches where the tag partner in peril and the lighter heel are both tagged in.
I have read it was mid-60's when he quit (1966?) and went into running a nightclub. Came back in the early 70's.
It is interesting that Shirley originally had the backing of Norman Morrell. I guess he fell out of favour there for whatever reason.
When did he quit wrestling and talk about going back to playing league? I thought it was mid 1950's but maybe it was later?
Two years ago we had a good talk about Crabtree and also the fact that he had an alias of Yukon Eric.
Lo and behold on that thread Yukon was billed with Jim Armstrong in Ireland.
https://www.wrestlingheritage.co.uk/apps/forums/topics/show/13463922-early-shirley-crabtree?page=3
somebody must have been making it but they should have been set for life with a bit of decent marketing but Max basically did the same in the 1970s and 1980s as he did in the 1950s, things moved on and he got left behind eventually playing to smaller and smaller crowds and throwing good money after bad
If Ron is correct in his thinking, that Big D didn't actually make a lot of money, then that is quite sad, given the happiness he brought to a lot of people.
Yes Ron, I saw "Young Shirley".
When he was first on the bill at Newcastle (Billed from Newcastle), I thought that it was a woman.
As I have said before , impressive physique, quite strong, but needed a lot of coaching teaching him the moves.
I thought that at times he looked lost until given the lead into a hold.
Probably some advances to be made there,there if he had been trained properly, but this obviously did not happen, because he never reached his full potential.
By the way I don't blame him for the way that his career went,others did that for him.
When Max started promoting around 1957 he was in great need of wrestlers for his shows. I would have thought poaching Shirley from Joint, where he didn't seem to be going anywhere, would have been an understandable move. I think in those days Shirley may also have been involved in the management side of the promotion, as was Norman Berry who had been working in publicity for Morrell. As for pay be the independents quite a few independent wrestlers have said the pay was better than for Joint.
BY 1958 for whatever reason Joint did not want Shirley.
What is the story behind Max the wrestler. Did he quickly twig that the promoters got most of the money.
Was it actually Max that led Shirley out of Joint in the quest of better money.
Could the Indy's really pay enough and such small rosters provide the same frequency of work.
I don't know the answer.
Did Bernard see young Shirley.
Here is a glimpse of Shirley as soon as he left Joint. Max included and the proof that Zoltan Boscik was a 1950's wrestler.
Nice post Ron. Thought provoking and well informed as always. Its good to hear the opinions of others on here even if I don't always share them.
I will throw in some thoughts as it is a Forum of Friends.
I could not really live with the belly butts and had long tired even of the Kendo unmask in 1977.
With the huge demand for kids to see Daddy in the eighties and the theme of good always winning over evil , who is to say the decisions to keep the push going far too long were in fact wrong.
But for me , I could not have steered wrestling in this direction.
My own interest starts with his intro in 1952 as a Blond Adonis , probably the same year as Gwyn Davies and maybe at that time not threatened by Dennis Mitchell and Portz who were not yet full heavies. If he could not make it in those next few years then we had Billy Robinson , Wall, Tibor , Elrington and a lot more coming through.
He still had something to be high flying in the Independents circa 1960 , but not enough to be the real deal.
By 1972 we were well in decline and with Kendo in Canada , there was a small window when this huge Guardsman actually looked bigger than anything I had seen. They spoilt this somewhat by having him squash mid heavies like Leon Arras and it was to my huge disappointment that Albert Wall had to sell to him at Belle Vue , delivering the flying headbutt but then hurt his back trying to pick up and slam Shirley for the finish.
In recent years I learn from Frank Thomas that every man and his dog then beat him at Liverpool , re-enforced by my own experiences of seeing Streiger and Gargantua maul him.
At the time , I thought there was no need for this.
Max put the invincibilty that Shirley needed right , but oh it was far too late . But that is not what the takings say.
But all the things I mention were a nail in the coffin for myself. I had grown up watching Robinson and Gordienko and others. Now it was Big Daddy or a washed up Blly two Rivers working for Jack Cassidy , imitation Doctor Deaths and more bouts where people were asked to pretend they were heavyweights when they were not.
Why did Shirley fail early on , it is a bit like Derek Oldham being the Ghouls greatest opponent but having to leave Joint and become Mike McGurn. Kendo's tough opponent Terry O'Neil went into the wilderness. Some guys went with Lincoln. Was it pure , Face did not fit.
Shirley was one of the few wrestlers I ever spoke to , I was far too shy to mither. We spoke several times , but he always kept Kayfabe .A nice guy shone through though and the talk of him always being putty in the hands of the tough guys.
I would like to balance that a little.
Heavyweight wrestlers would ha
ve been some of the toughest people in the country and even some a bit lighter than heavyweight.
This ex Rugby league player from Yorkshire would not be as soft as many think.
In my book , he was tough enough and I am not so sure that he had great luck in life. I see little sign that wrestling made him even comfortably off.
He went on too long , but at least they did not stick the belt on him and like it or not ha has made British Wrestling History. It is what it is.
Just my rambling opinion.
It was the happiness he brought to the children so on balance the whole charade was well worth it.
Yeah I always seemed to hear that he wasn't the nicest of people. Saw him very briefly as a heel partnering Mr Haystacks but cant remember much about it.
Adrian. Did Dave Finley ever take part in the Daddy circus? I cant recall him ever being in the heel tag team, sadly I know Rocco did but why he didnt refuse is beyond me!
Enjoyed his "Heel Phase" as the Battling Guardsman. What came later as "The Children's Favourite" was a blatant ploy to put bums on seats by his brother and not of his making or for that matter, choice.. He went on too long, but met Shirley a few times and always found him to be a really nice fellow which is at odds with some of the "stuff" I read about him from time to time.
Just had a look...
Well, well. I have to agree that really was a bit of an education to me, never seen Daddy perform like that and credit where its due he actually did wrestle a fair bit. Amazing to see Elijah actually lift him off the ground and walk with him! also quite surprised to see ole wobble bott actually giving John a fair bit of the fight. Maybe I've miss judged the man? I'd have been more impressed if he'd have thrown in a drop kick or two or maybe jumped off the top rope in true Rocco style.
I'm still not having it with The Royals tho ...
One DADDY Bout DOES stand out FRANK!-Think it's still on You Tube-.......
DADDY vs. JOHN 'THE BEAR' ELIJAH!!
CRABTREE actually shows he COULD Wrestle a bit in a well-worked Contest!-
Check it out........
The Rest......to put it Kindly......NOT for me!!-Guys like QUINN and KIRK and KENDO could
easily have taken him apart in reality and would have been quick about it too!!
Just checked first before Posting this Bout IS still there!
MAIN MASK