The Shooters

there's a lot being made by some about the shooters, but at the end of the day if they couldn't wrestle and entertain the paying public they soon found it hard to get regular bookings. Shooters had to adapt or find another way to bring in a regular

Lots of traffic for a post that’s deemed irrelevant by some. A little trick I’ve developed over the years with posts that don’t interest me is to simply not read em. Surely you can’t be that bored? there’s plenty of other things to do. I’m busier than a one armed juggler with crabs over here.

Or may be 'shooter' is just what they call a 'real fighter' not necessary a 'clean wrestler' (a man with glorious amateur wrestling background)...back to terminology jungles.

I would say any of the Lancashire Amateur Wrestling Association's former champs who turned pros. Among others: Joe Reid, Johnny Nelson, Jim Crompton, George Gregory and many others. Those were not just capable wrestlers but also championship caliber stars of amateur catch freestyle wrestling. Besides Lancashire amateur stars there were of course many British amateur champ catcheurs of the world's top level, among others N. Morell and Harold Angus.

Ron Historyo, who's in your shooterzzz list?

Yes, it's a real enigma to know what we think about this and how to express it.

I think that the majority of the chaps from the early days,up to the 70's could handle themselves in the ring if necessary.When Supermax took over a lot of them couldn't handle a squabble in Mothercare.It was just a matter of time as to when the fans got fed up with the old,fat,flabby,and ridiculous moves which took over.I did hear that Big Daddy could shoot with the best.......................with his 12 bore.Shirley was a passable wrestler,but never a shooter.

I think it does have some relevance inasmuch that the public were presented with a spectacle that was supposedly legit, a shoot.

It's logical that we should wonder who was really the best at the shoot sport. Even if the nature of the true shoot sport would not attaract millions of punters attention after the initial interest.

It's a fascinating ongoing enigma with surprising revelations such as Saxonwolf's that even Catweazle may have been a shooter!

Couldn't agree more Hack.Well said

We keep ending up down this shooters road but we are discussing professional wrestling. Was ability as a shooter of any great relevance. Surely it was more a case of doing the job you are being paid to do.

So just getting suckered once again into this and the sado-masochist that was Assirati, according to Robinson.

Did the two ever wrestle each other?

Also, based on the old boxing saying, "a good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un", then if you want to rank wrestlers and ask who would walk away as "king of the hill", then Billy Robinson would be up at the top, in my opinion.

Billy himself rated a few wrestlers, like Karl Gotch and George Gordienko. Big George was, according to most things I have read, naturally incredibly strong, and that would have to be a factor.

Anglo, "... It would be easier to make up the alternate non-shooter list including Catweazle, Dick Conlon and Black Jack Mulligan. Pure professionals..."

Catweazle was an amateur wrestler and knew how to wrestle, despite his comedy act and apparent ineptness. Black Jack Mulligan, the same.

I stand corrected 😉

Shooter is an overused term in wrestling. It does make for some fun stories, though. According to Robinson, the toughest guys he faced in shoot fights were street fighters because they were unpredictable.

I recently saw an interview on youtube given by Superstar Billy Graham. During his talk he stated how Billy Robinson had a reputation for hurting men for real during his contests. Graham went as far as threatening Robinson prior to their encounters that if he hurt him, Graham was prepared to slash Robinson with concealed razor blades taped to his fingers during their contests.

In other interviews it was stated that the only two real fights Robinson ever lost were because he was so inebriated he couldn’t defend himself properly. And that both wrestlers who beat Robinson quickly left the area the following day! Billy Robinson himself described Bert Assirati as both a masochist and a sadist, so not the type of opponent anyone would wish to face I would imagine.

Bruno Sammartino also recounted a tale where Antonio Inoki tried to shoot on him during a bout in Japan working for Giant Baba. Sammartino realised what was happening and used his superior strength to power out of a hold before it was fully applied. This was Inoki’s last fight for Baba’s promotion before he split away to form his own organisation. The word was that Karl Gotch (Inoki’s mentor) and Inoki conspired to demean Sammartino giving the public the idea that Inoki was the better, harder man and Baba’s promotion was second rate to Inoki’s new one. Baba fell out with both Gotch and Inoki over this and Sammartino said he lost respect for both Inoki and his mentor. Whereas Giant Baba was an honourable man until the end.

Possibly Sammy Lee

Yes, very good.

However, to take a distanced view of these so-called shooters, or as I call them technicians without a willing paying public to watch them, at that time, another problem I have with them is that so many pro wrestlers were, apparently, shooters.

Robinson, Joyce, Dempsey, Woods, Nagasaki, Martinelli, Foley, Riley, Henri Pierlot, Naylor, Marty Jones .... the list is endless.

Realistically, there had to be some good'uns south of Stockport and north of Lancaster:

Marino, Roach, Kidd, Robin, Heath, Howes, Charles, The Outlaw, Judo Pete, Judo Al, Assirati, Capelli, Mann ....

Not to mention wrestlers we are told were champion amateurs:

Bridges, Kendall, Bronson, Haward, Myers, Finlay, Tibor, Nicol ....

And then Yorkshire.

And then the boxers you didn't mess with like Maxine and Kincaid and Bruno.

It seems that the discussion of shooters is intended to bestow an air of invincibility on them. But when all is said and done, it seems like half the wrestlers we discuss were shooters or similar.

Shooters don't get automatically placed above the others because their rules are not elite, their rules are not professional wrestling rules. They are players without a playground. It would be easier to make up the alternate non-shooter list including Catweazle, Dick Conlon and Black Jack Mulligan. Pure professionals.

So it's not enough to say "Wow, he was a shooter" if so many were. For a useful discussion, maybe the shooters should be ranked. But what would the rules be - Saxonwolf can tell us, for sure.

If you put all of those named above into an MMA tourney, not to mention many others I haven't listed, imagined them to be equal weights and at their prime, who would step out of of the cage the overall champion?

Cheers Bill

Some good stuff there,as normal,Saxo.Thanks

Steve Regal just comes across as a genuinely nice guy. He spans the end of our TV era, the touring and the European territories, and then on to the USA with WCW and WWF.

American Wrestler Terry Taylor told a funny story about when he was starting out in the business, and was used to wrestling other American guys, one night they put in him with Les Thornton.

"...Les had been around for a while -- he was in his fifties when I worked with him and this was the first run I had with him.

He could have really resented the 25-year-old kid across the ring from him, and probably had every reason to resent me, but he didn't. Les treated me with respect and taught me a lot. He worked the English style which back in 1980 was completely foreign (no pun intended) to not only the fans, but to me as well.

There was so much for me to learn. I very easily could have stunk the joint out and a lesser veteran might have even enjoyed that, but Les wasn't that kind of man," wrote Taylor. "Les did such a good job leading me through quality matches that he would put HIMSELF in holds and submissions! All I had to do was hang on!...on one occasion, I was screaming in pain, to the audience, when Les whispered "no Terry, YOU have got ME in a submission!"....."

One of the photographer's who took pictures for US Wrestling magazines, and got to know all the Wrestlers said "Thornton had a diverse repertoire, working American-style with a spark of UK flash that made him unique. Chain wrestling, an array of suplexes, submission work, and strong-looking offense featuring the obligatory British uppercut. Matter-of-fact interviews with a cool British accent belied his understated, well-earned confidence as someone who could take care of themselves in any situation."

Dory Funk Senior (father of Dory junior and Terry Funk) was a real Wrestler, who used to love inviting other shooters to his ranch at the weekend for a BBQ and beers. If Les Thornton was there, it always ended up with Dory (after a few beers) saying, "Les, come over here, see if you can get out of this", which Les always could. On the day he died of a heart attack, Dory senior had been fooling around, shooting with Les Thornton and Gordon "The Outlaw" Nelson. Most wrestlers in attendance said that it was probably how he would have loved to have spent his last day, surrounded by wrestlers, trying to shoot with Les Thornton and drinking beer.

Someone mentioned on here some months ago that Tornado Torontos was a shooter, but I find that very hard to believe.

There’s some good Steve Regal podcasts on YouTube if you’re a fan. He’s an Interesting guy To listen to.

Regal made it in US because he was a great worker,he had skills beyond just wrestling,putting others over was easy for him because he hadn't got any ego problems.He could also handle himself if neccessary

Billy Robinson without a doubt, Karl Gotch, George Gordienko, who was also incredibly strong.

Most of the British lads who went to the US could shoot, so by the time Steve (William) Regal arrived over there, he said a lot of wrestlers refused to wrestle him because they had heard too many stories of what could happen if you upset one of them.

Me too. But I don’t believe anyone was suggesting they were in anyway ‘superior’ Just a question as to who the shooters were.

This time I agree with Anglo.A Bill full of Wiganites would have put the "crowd" to sleep IMO.

That told us ...

Hang about, we can all see that Les kellett was one of the lightest workers imaginable. Comedy bouts low on impact. Forget Nagasaki's Hastings comments. Les was probably very concerned about that bout - too proud to say - and got it wrong.

Any so-called reputation refers to situations well outside the ring, doesn't it?

All those endless bouts with Logan, Graham, Haggetty, Mel S, Sharron, McManus ---- just fun theatre.

Shooters, for me at least, were those unsmiling Wiganites like Dempsey and Joyce and, more recently, Naylor, who sought an outlet for their narrow "skills" in a context to which they were not wholly suited, rounded, capable: our professional wrestling.

A world of Wiganites would not have created the national interest that was established around them and they must not be considered superior in any way.

There.

Or Assirati, Leonard

or Assirati, Leonard

Not sure how you can really make your way in the wrestling game if you’re going to be brutal with your opponent. Still I guess it didn’t do Les any harm, I can however imagine a good few raised eyebrows from various wrestlers when they clocked in for work and found out they were in with Billy or Les. 🙈

Billy Robinson was brutal.A shooter of the highest order,many would not get in the ring with him when he went to the USA.If he had been more "easygoing" he would have been one of the biggest stars ever in the States

Wasn't Billy Robinson reputed to be a shooter of the highest order?

I am sure that I have read that somewhere.

Bobo Matu and Docker Don Steadman were hard