The Success of 'The Story of Catch' (2019)

Two thumbs up Ruslan! Congratulations!

The post war promoters also needed the new rules to give the image that the "new" wrestling was a sea change from the bad old days of the 1930s. They needed local councils to look again at wrestling and permit it in their halls. Similar things had happened in the 1930s.

Sorry ,should be Oakeley.

Hi Ruslan. I do not normally argue with people's ideas on threads ,but I would query your statement that "All -in and Mount-Evans were the same roughhouse "

I doubt if anyone on this site now, saw Oakely's bouts live.

I have seen clips ,which were on the news with the 2 Jack Doyle "Fights" at the RAH.

I did see the first days of Mount- Evans rules at Newcastle.

The ME rules bouts were much more strictly controlled than the Oakely bouts.

Glad I went through this thread.Thanks to all contributors,extremely interesting and enjoyable.

The program. The last picture above is from the London Times

seeing as i had mentioned Gotch taking on Dinnie while he was in the U.K on tour with a play written for him, here's a little photo and blurb from the tattler, 1908-11-18. The tattler was an infamous london tabloid

And the bystander from a week later

i ran this through a colorization program

this was the original 1908 match

$3200 is a bit steep for my blood as well, those old lithographs are indeed works of art,

Waino was a masshole for years. Amherst, I seem to recall. Anyway it’s where he met Riley. The other waino was a weightlifter who also did Grec. Are you going to snap up that poster?

SaxonWolf and Debraco I asked our superstar The Main Mask help with the British Wrestling Assn XX Century Catch Wrestling Rules. He's an Oakeley expert, I am pretty sure he can help. So excited to hear from him. Follow my post on that subject.

when it comes to wrestling we always will be back to the eternal question: GRECO-ROMAN v FREESTYLE. Highly recommend the Olin-Stecher match.

Most folks read my dissertations out loud for pest control. The vermin is bored to death before they can escape hearing range, although some do-gooders believe this is to inhumane for even the likes of roaches and rats

so yeah GRAECO-ROMAN background 100%, and it shouldn't be surprising...Even Geo Hack held Finnish greco belt (its on his famous belts photo). Which shows how prestigious it was to go and win their championship. Finlandia was a leading Euro Greco country.

SaxonWolf and Debraco, you would enjoy this reference:

"Moving indoors, the vogue for wrestling began to appear among the Finnish-Americans about the year 1910. A few years before that, a group of Finns had arrived from Tampere, where they had become wrestlers in the Pyrintö Club: Gunnar Grönlund, Matt Kangas, Väinö Ketonen, Karl Lehto, Jooseppi Lehtonen, Kalle Rantala and Karl J. Wirtanen. In the spring of 1909 there was an announcement in the Urheiluviesti, the sports paper which Wirtanen had begun to edit, stating that Grönlund, Lehto, Rantala and Wirtanen had formed a group and would put on exhibition matches in the Minnesota mining region. Between performances they also taught other interested Finns the art of wrestling, gave shows all over the Middle West, and often took part in matches against other champions. That wrestling was not just a sport popular among a few but was enjoyed by vast crowds is claimed in the series of articles written by "G. A." (Gust Aakula) and K. J. Wirtanen in the Industrialisti in the spring of 1955, amplified with an article in the Ironwood Daily Globe of 26 February 1955".

reference the their alma mater:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampereen_Pyrint%C3%B6

Väinö Ketonen (Finnish spelling) appears in East Lancashire and competes in local pro wrestling matches (Lancashire catch) as early as 1911.

There were two waino ketenons wrestling one of which was an Olympic freestyle wrestler. After he’d been in the states for a while he picked up the CACC and would be an influence on Riley

SaxonWolf, Debraco, enjoy my articles. I am an expert member of the Traditional Sports international movement. My article called THE ROOTS OF MODERN WRESTLING was a subject of my report at the international conference on traditional styles of wrestling couple of months ago.

https://www.wrestling-titles.com/europe/pashayev/

I could read this stuff all day long!

Thanks guys. I do remember reading the name Waino Ketonen before, am I right in thinking Billy Riley said that Ketonen was the best wrestler he ever faced?, something like that? I need to dust down my old books and read them all again. Was there a tradition of submission wrestling in Finland or did Ketonen learn this elsewhere.

So it appears that both styles (Eastern and Western wrestling, if you will) had some submission moves which the other picked up.

Also, while it appears that Lancashire Catch Wrestling and Catch as Catch Can are interchangeable, when describing the wrestling style, am I right in thinking they are two related, but not the same, styles. Almost like "cousins"?

CACC was the style that originated in England, made up of the best bits of overseas styles, brought back by British sailors I think?

I used to know all this stuff!, the older I get, and with the increasingly busy work load I have, I don't have time to keep my knowledge up to date.

will do. I'd also ad that it was a two way street in regards to the technique and knowledge flow, in no old jiudo or handa book is there a double wristlock/kimura or crooked head scissors before its exposure to CACC/Lancashire, there was neither a top wrist lock/americana in CACC/Lancashire before handa/jiudo. In mentioning Yukio Tani it's often pointed his mastery of the CACC leg rides and his ability to flumox other japanese opponents with his use of them. When he crushed Higashi in Paris it was noted that Higashi had no ability to counter tani's leg work

Bacon at the time tried to start a style of catch that consisted of only throws and no mat work to nullify the American shenanigans on the ground. At one point i had uploaded over 3000 newspaper clippings from the 1850's thru the 1940's in relation to CACC, from the UK, America, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. After tinypic went out of business it was the end

This is quite interesting for me, are we saying that the method of wrestling taught by Billy Riley (using him as the most famous example), included submissions he had taken from Ju-Jitsu?

Something like, a top wrist lock?

Obviously, choking someone, or grabbing their arm and twisting it up their back is as old as mankind, but something that needed a bit more thought and expertise usually needs to be taught. If Catch-as-catch-can didn't naturally have a system of submission moves, where did wrestlers like Ad Santel, the German born American wrestler who beat Judo and JuJitsu wrestlers in Japan and the USA, in the early part of the 20th century, learn his style?

"...In 1914, the World Light Heavyweight Champion Ad Santel defeated Tokugoro Ito, a 5th degree black belt in judo, in a jacket match. Because Ito had claimed to be a "Japanese judo champion", after the match Santel claimed to be the "World Judo Champion." This apparently embarrassed the founder of judo, Professor Kano. In response, Professor Kano sent another challenger, 4th degree black belt Daisuke Sakai, to defeat Santel. However, Santel also defeated Sakai.

The challenge matches continued in 1921. In March, Ad Santel challenged the Kodokan to dispute his claim as "World Judo Champion". In the first match, Santel defeated 5th degree black belt Reijiro Nagata by TKO. Santel then drew with 5th degree black belt Hikoo Shoji after fighting for 60 minutes. Based upon these performances, the Japanese became fascinated with the European style of submission wrestling. Given the first opportunity, Japanese wrestlers would flock to learn the secrets of European "hooking"....."

If the secrets to Submission Wrestling were simply using Ju Jitsu holds, locks and submissions, why did Japanese Wrestlers not simply just learn that?, why was Karl Gotch held in such high esteem in Japan, and became the main trainer in the early days of NJPW?, the same for Billy Robinson. Why did Billy Riley's gym become the centre of submission wrestling as we know it?, what sort of hybrid submission wrestling style did Riley create, and how?

I am not arguing here, just thinking out loud really.

Usually a niche book like this is also sold by the author at a higher profit margin than a usual print on demand by amazon.

This is a professionally published book. I wondered expect an author to sell it himself. For those who have problems with Amazon it is on sale elsewhere, such as Wordery.

That’s what I figured, but on the off chance he was selling copies himself I wanted to ask.

The book is sold on Amazon.

whatever you do, don't mention the submission holds not being native to Lancashire to anyone from Wigan. They'll be after you with pitchforks and flaming brands. The thing you do see in the old times is the double wrist lock, they mainly used it as a spin down though.

Where can i find this?

Anglo thanks. I would like to add some more to what I already said.

Catch wrestling isn't a self-defense style either, nor it ever was. It was first of all pro wrestling style, meaning the objective was to give a fall and wrestlers were paid by the organizer of the match/show/performance. Pro wrestling in its essence, and nothing else. Amateurism was introduced in 1920s when the Lancs Amateur Wrestling Assn was promoting their own titles under the NAWA of Great Britain.

I don't want people to get confused...aulde Up and Down Fighting/Wrestling and Lancashire catch wrestling...were totally different animals. The former wasn't about falls, using wrestling techniques (no throwing punches) you had to takedown your opponent restrain him in the movement and make him quit admitting his defeat verbally saying - nuff! There was no way for that style ever to become an official pro wrestling in Victorian England...so that's how you get Lancashire Catch wrestling of the 1800s...it was a mix...of up and down...and traditional English concept of wrestling...struggle for a back fall.

Historically besides up and down fighting rossle in East Lancs was also standing catch, where the throw was enough, just like in other English folk styles of wrestling...Often you read...two men would try for a fall...one would throw the other...then they would argue whether there was a back fall or wasn't (flying falls from standing position caused eternal argumentation between rasslers, refs it was a forever lasting story)...not being able to resolve the issue in a peaceful way they would agree on up and down to decide the dispute...they rossle whomever wins is the strongest. I am talking 1600s-early 1800s.

The greater the time-span becomes between the present day and the period of interest, the greater the depth of research seems paradoxically to extend.

Those fifties French bouts coming to light 60+ years later; and this great scholarly research from Ruslan . So hard to bring together the various slippery strings of wrestling variants down the ages. Very well done.

Your posts are always interesting Ruslan. Could you please remind me (and all of us) about Catch Wrestling submissions?, was it a case that submissions were always part of Catch, when taught, but not used in competitions?

Great , you get the impression that these guys really knew what they were doing.

They were fit , small , but strong pound for pound.

Ron, when I say - ADAM RIDINGS' STYLE I MEAN THIS.

Jim Parr of Platt Bridge, near Wigan, Lancs was among the most famous American Lancastrians as Hack calls them. Ron, and he also had a belt. It was a first official British Pro Wrestling (Catch-as-catch-can) Heavyweight Championship Belt, 1899.

Hack, Ron, Dear Friends, Thank You for your help and support!!! Out of Darkness Cometh the Light...those series is a birth of THE STORY OF CATCH!!! There's NO story of catch without HERITAGE !!!

Success is all down to you Ruslan, Your determination, dedication, thorough research and just the right amount of bonkersness, an essential requirement of us all. It's been great to see your research develop since you first made contact with Heritage a few years back. Like quite a few it took a long time for you to brave the forum, and look at you now. We always warned you that yours was a niche interest. But I'll tell you what. Thanks to you it's not as niche as it was. As for the book, there must be many of us envious of your achievement. For those who have not seen the book it is not only as thorough as you would expect from Ruslan but also very professionally produced.

I don't think anyone will ever be able to significantly add to your excellent research. What an effort and you are still going all guns blazing.

Often wonder what could attract your interest next. Is there a new challenge ahead for you one day.