Way Out Weights

Anglo Italian

Moving on from the discussion Bernard and I were having about wrestlers' weights...

Some wrestlers seemed regularly to be billed at wrong weights.

Two that stuck out were Klondyke Jake and Roger Wells. Both were regularly billed as 20 stones but seemed not even 16 stones to me. Anyone (dis)agree?

Robby Baron was billed as a welterweight throughout his career jet must have been nearly 14 stones in his last few years. Saw him in embarrassingly mismatched contests with Julien Morice. The promoters didn't notice Young Robby grow.

Honey Boy Zimba I mentioned today was apparently 15st 7lbs but often featured in light-heavyweight bouts.

I have no idea what Masambula weighed - he seemed to wrestle everyone.

And Steve Logan featured in all those heavyweight bouts as well as being British Heavy-Middleweight champion.

Does anyone else have similar memories?

powerlock

I certainly think the weight discrepancies got worse in the late 1960s onwards . I know for instance Peter Kaye was supposed to have trimmed down to middleweight but he was a pretty big middleweight as far as I could remember

david franklin

A match I saw advertised that underlined the lack of credibility as years went by was when Johnny Czeslaw (a mid-heavyweight for all of his career, who often went in against heavyweights) fought Brian Maxine for the British Mioddleweight Title. Everything about British wrestling was nonsensical by then anyway. :(

SaxonWolf

How accurate were weights anyway? I imagine that when the Mountevans rules first came in, they were properly recorded and stuck to, for a while. But after that?

I am sure our weights were more accurate than our US cousins, where everyone has a few inches extra in height added, and about 20 pounds in weight.

Ron Historyo

I think the trouble is they had long careers and there were books with height and weight statistics and no doubt Kent Walton had some sort of point of reference.

With TV it was even more difficult to guess the height. I saw McManus billed from 12-3 to 13-3 (I think) and he no doubt started at under 11 stones. With a thick beefy back he would have some weight at the end but he was so small.

Logan must have been 5-8 or a little more when young and topped 14 stones. Not enough to really be in with Rocky Wall but enough for Marino,

In that old wrestling footage of Kellet and Dennison going for a run there did not look too much in height and Dennison was small and 13-3 at peak. His partner Ted Heath was apparently 5-4 and looked bigger as he was powerfully built. Kellet was over 14 stones but seemingly not so tall but how tall I am not sure.

Andy Robin again went in with the heavies and was strong and somewhere in the 15 stones region but I believe was only about 5-7.

A 1970 Kendo was listed as 15-3 and had aspirations of Howes's European Mid heavy Title but Kayfabe could not prove he was European. I would put him at 6-1 but in his Brian Dixon days he must have been over 17 stones.

Even without TV with the spotlight on Live I thought they looked big but out of the ring some were not as big as we thought.

It's a very difficult judgement but very normal for a wrestler to gain 2 stones in a career , even a small wrestler.

Not all of course , Johnny Saint did not change much.

SaxonWolf

Good answer Ron, and yes of course most people put on the pounds as they get older. Kendo is an interesting one, because he looked a solid build in the late 60's, then when his TV career took off, he became leaner, and in fact looking back on some of his TV bouts in the 70's, he looks positively skinny.

His mid-late 80's TV, with Blondie Barratt, he looks like a proper heavyweight.

Being up in a ring, made people look taller, and of course the high up angle of the TV camera made them look taller as well.

We often talk about Haystacks and how tall he was really, and I think we all agree that he did clap the weight on as he got older, and also lose some inches in height. The funny TV clip of him slamming a TV presenter, he looks like a real giant. A few weeks ago, I saw a picture taken of him in a ring (empty building) holding apart William (Steve) Regal and Triple H, I think regal said they were wrestling in the UK and Haystacks just called by the building in the daytime, to say hello. Regal and Triple H wanted to do a publicity shot and Regal asked Haystacks if he would like to be in it.

Anyway, the point of all that was that in the photo, Haystacks doesn't appear taller than Regal or Triple H, who I assume to be 6ft 2 to a max 6ft 4 ???

Bernard Hughes

Hi Anglo, now you are starting to make some sense on weights, unlike on the other thread.

Just a point Hack, Could we/you ask some of the retired wrestlers that you know or who come on here (Paul) just how often anyone asked them their weight?

I bet that it wasn't too often after they had started their career.

frank thomas

Think Jackie Pallo summed it up perfectly in "you grunt I'll groan" when where discussing championship matches, when he said: 'it's not like boxing where you get a weigh in, have you ever seen a wrestler weigh in? " No! Of course not, because if he's little he's a lightweight, if he's average size, he's a middleweight and if he's big, a heavyweight! By the way, i saw Jon Cortez win the world middleweight title in a KO tournament at Liverpool Stadium in 1978, and two weeks later was introduced by the MC as "the speedy Dulwich lightweight, Jon Cortez!" Smoke and mirrors indeed!

Mad Mac

Two glaring examples for me:

1) Mick McMichael, who went (Waltonism alert!) "up and down through the weights" but never looked any different

2) Colin Joynson challenging Marty Jones for the Mid-Heavyweight title even though he looked no different to the way he had for years. I remember thinking that he might have been a Mid-Heavyweight when he was about 14.....

John

In November 1977 there was a bout on TV where Peter 'Tally-Ho' Kaye challenged the Dynamite Kid for the British Lightweight title. I was just 12 years old and even I could tell that Kaye looked significantly heavier then the Dynamite Kid. I remember that it was a very good bout though. Also, Alan Dennison, who Kent Walton had often said weighed 14 stone 2 lbs, the light-heavyweight limit, took on and beat Jim Breaks for the British Welterweight title in 1980. I remember they had some very entertaining bouts on TV against each other. Do we forgive the promoters for lying to us about the wrestlers weights, if that lie was what it took to create some entertaining title bouts for us to watch.

Paul

Pete Roberts was someone who could tussle with Marty Jones at Mid heavy one night and then be challenging Bridges for the Heavywieght title the next.

Marty Jones, towards the end of his career, was billed at heavyweight, and probably had grown into being one.

The Ost

The answers I've received from retired wrestlers are;

"The never weighed us."

and

"The promoter asked me once how much I weighed. That was it."

Bernard Hughes

Thank you to The Ost.

That was exactly the point that I made early on in this Debate (?)

I knew that wrestlers were not usually asked what their weight was but I am pleased that someone else backed up that knowledge.

Philip Kenyon

I was never asked my weight, but there again I was a heavyweight of some 105 kg, so nobody cared.

Anglo Italian

Wow, that makes you the Kilogram Champ, Mike! How unusual to hear kgs mentioned in our context.

Let me see: 16st 7lbs?

Bernard Hughes

Yes Anglo, good calculator you have got.

Anglo Italian

In my head, Bernard, otherwise I wouldn't have asked! Wait till you see me on Countdown.

Philip Kenyon

Yes, when we forget the ounces, absolutely correct.

Sorry been abroad for much too long!

david franklin

It's interesting to hear, with the “progress” of wrestling over the last 50 years how “weights” do seem to have become less important.

I wonder if weights became less important because wrestling became less credible?

or perhaps

Wrestling became less credible because weights became less important?

I certainly remember as a youngster being very impressed when on every show at the Colston Hall in Bristol MC Francis P Blake announced the exact weight of each competitor when he was introducing the match. Was he making it all up? Did they simply tell him their weight? Did they have scales in the dressing room?

None of this really matter because we all believed him and he made it seem to be more of a serious competion.

It would be interesting to know if the Colston Hall was the only venue to follow this practice?

Anglo Italian

Fascinating. I never witnessed such precision, David.

And I never saw Frankie Blake as anything other than lazy and imprecise.

So your post comes as a shock in both respects.

Philip Kenyon

Hi David,

In my wrestling career I never saw or heard of scales being in the dressing rooms, nor was I ever asked my weight.

In the case of MC’s announcing the weights, this was usually done if a wrestler had an unusual anatomy of height and or weight i.e. Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks etc. or in the case of a catchweight contest.

Never came across an MC announcing the weights of the various wrestlers.

Bernard Hughes

Hi Phil, I know that is true in northern England anyway.

Please tell me (and Anglo) more about what you knew as a catchweight bout please.

Philip Kenyon

The catchweight contests were when two wrestlers who had two different weights i.e. Light heavy against heavyweight / Middleweight against light heavy weight were put on against each other. This was usually the case when the lighter of the two was speedy enough to get around the weight advantage of the heavier guy.

Bernard Hughes

Thanks Phil, that's how I understood it.

Different weights Anglo, does that ring a bell?

Anglo Italian

Hi Bernard

Phil also says Catchweight was when the lighter of the two guys was a speedy mover. So that would include Mick McManus taking on, say, Bert Royal? Phil is giving his own experiences, also about weights and scales.

Just because you didn't see bills where Middleweight v Hvy-Mdwght was classified as a Middleweight bout doen's mean these didn't exist (you have seen them from my Frank MalmoasO nor that they were invalid. Also, I never ever saw Les Kellett taking on Yearsley, Sharron or Nagasaki when it wasn't billed as heavyweight bout. Never seen a bout like that billed as Catchweight.

I didn't go wrestling in the north of England often enough to make comments about how the precision of northen promoters, But I certainly did witness lots of Middleweight and Heavyweight bouts of the type I describe.

This is an ongoing feud Barnard so let's try and bring it to a conclusion.

Are you saying I am mistaken and I have invented these bouts (that I posted images of, for example)?

Or that the promoters I saw applying this rule were mistaken and shouldn't have?

I think we all know Catchweight bouts were the scourge of professional wrestling and to be avoided or at least minimised. You could have had four catchweight bouts on a bill sometimes.

At 231 lbs, I am imaging Catchweight went under Phil's radar and he was always in heavweight bouts? (Against Les Kellett☺)

Paul

Boxers often switch between cruiser and heavyweight.

Anglo Italian

By the way, with Ron's latest IoM posting we can see a billed middleweight contest between Bill Howes at 14 stone and the Mask at 12.5 stone. These duly fall between the 12st 7lb and 14st 2lb limits.

Mind you, there's also a light-middleweight bout, but that's another story....

Bernard Hughes

Hi Anglo, I tried to post this earlier but went I pressed submit, I lost the page.This happened 3 or 4 times.

There is no feud on my part, just a difference of opinion.

I don't think that you are inventing things, I think that once again the promoters were using artistic licence.

Now having said all that i still believe that a bout between two different weight classes is a catchweight contest.

I guess that we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Anglo Italian

No feud, I agree, Bernard, we are just chatting in the pub, just the beers are missing ☺

And wrestling does set us dilemmas that are not easy to solve and do need good thinking through.

For me, part of the problem is the word Catchweight. It was at times a dreadful justification for sloppy and even improbable match-making.

So Catchweight was to be avoided; and the Frank Malmoa principle was the partial solution.

Light-middleweight, to my way of thinking, is a nonsensical one-off distracting invention.

matey dave

i remember trainee being sent out for a long weight and left handed screw driver

Bernard Hughes

Matey Dave, Anglo and I were having an almost sensible conversation and then you came along.

Anglo Italian

Almost?

So Giant Haystacks. I saw him billed from 31 st to 46 stone. I saw him look immense, and I saw him look anorexic (relatively)

Is there any way we can establish his true max and min weights?

Bernard Hughes

Probably not Anglo.

Going back over what has been said again on this thread-----Wrestlers do not have their weights taken often if ever.

They may be asked what their weight is , not often. That may be right or more likely the wrestler does not know his exact weight.

Then, probably, if necessary the promoter or his representative (often the referee) would make a guess.

beancounter

One of the things causing me to lose all interest in Wrestling during the mid 1970s was a bill at Preston where Marty Jones fought Ray Steele for "The British Lightheavyweight Championship". The wrestlers were accompanied into the ring by seconds bearing Union Flags and we all had to stand for half a verse of the national anthem. Steele must have weighed over 15 stone and looked far heavier than Jones who, of course, won by 2 - 1. (Wouldn't have done to have a heavyweight Lightheavyweight Champion, would it?). The whole doubtful operation was overseen by Mr Crabtree. I don't think I ever attended again.

Paul

I think the weight cateogires were important because they gave wrestling to sense of realism and helped distance it from the American equivalent where weight was irrelevant. I know after wrestling went of air, it became a bit of a free for all and the likes of Marty jones was mid heavyweight one week and heavy weight another.

I remember one night at Croydon where Jones was challenged by Pat Roach and Brian Dixon simply refered to the belt as 'the title.'

David Mantell

Jones won the Briish Heavyweight title in 1996 and lost it some time in 97/98, but it isn't clear how. Wikipedia says he retired, but see below. Style mag Sleaze Nation did an article on All Star in '98 where they list Karl Krammer as champion.

Jones kept hold of his World Mid Heavyweight title until '99 when he lost it to "Legend Of Doom" Johnny South. A year later in 2000, he was back as a blue-eye again and feuding with Kendo over the Wrestler of the Millenium trophy, leading to a big 16th June 2000 tag match in Hanley, caught on camcorder, where Kendo and Vic Powers beat Jones and Darren Walsh.. He still had the odd match up to about 2003-ish.

lofty waterman

Good answer Ron, and yes of course most people put on the pounds as they get older. Kendo is an interesting one, because he looked a solid build in the late 60's, then when his TV career took off, he became leaner, and in fact looking back on some of his TV bouts in the 70's, he looks positively skinny.

His mid-late 80's TV, with Blondie Barratt, he looks like a proper heavyweight.

Being up in a ring, made people look taller, and of course the high up angle of the TV camera made them look taller as well.

We often talk about Haystacks and how tall he was really, and I think we all agree that he did clap the weight on as he got older, and also lose some inches in height. The funny TV clip of him slamming a TV presenter, he looks like a real giant. A few weeks ago, I saw a picture taken of him in a ring (empty building) holding apart William (Steve) Regal and Triple H, I think regal said they were wrestling in the UK and Haystacks just called by the building in the daytime, to say hello. Regal and Triple H wanted to do a publicity shot and Regal asked Haystacks if he would like to be in it.

Anyway, the point of all that was that in the photo, Haystacks doesn't appear taller than Regal or Triple H, who I assume to be 6ft 2 to a max 6ft 4 ???

hi saxon wolf i watched an interview with Mick Mcmanus and he said that Giant haystacks was a bout 6ft 9 ins so was haystacks 6ft 9ins or 6ft 11ins.

all the best

keep up the good work

Regards

Lofty Waterman

Ron Historyo

Got great doubts about Haystacks height Lofty. Six seven makes a huge man.

Pat Roach was six four and a half , you can even see just a bit more than six three Jimmy Nail. On Youtube you can see Roach and Haystacks and you can see Roach and Skywalker (Tyler Main) Tyler has since admitted he is six seven.

Haystacks was minimum four inches less that WCW Giant who was shy of seven feet or maybe near when young and slim.

I am sure Haystack's weight lost him a couple of inches as he grew older. Only an opinion and to be honest You could not judge him to an inch if you stood next to him. Would not be suprised if late in the day he was down to Six Six.

I always thought Jim Moran was as tall but never saw them square up. (all been said before)

Weight probably gaining for most of his adult life. 40 stones though takes some doing.

Here he is with Roach and compare the ref,.

SaxonWolf

Anyway, Lofty, I think Haystacks was probably 6ft 7 or 6ft 8. If you look at the pictures on the link below, you can get a good idea, as a friend of mine once met Big Daddy and said he was surprised that Big D was about the same height as him, and my mate was not even 6ft tall, so if Daddy was around 6ft maximum, then Haystacks looks around 6-8 inches taller.

https://www.ewrestlingnews.com/articles/the-best-of-british-vol-9-big-daddy-vs-giant-haystacks ;

Mad Mac

Met Pat Roach in Glasgow Central station many years ago, and the 6'5" he was typically billed as seemed right.

SaxonWolf

On a similar subject to weights and heights, I was reading a US forum where someone asked the true height of Andre the Giant and most people said 6ft 10. He was always billed (in later years) as being over seven feet tall, but I remember as a young lad in the 1970's, when he appeared in "The Six Million Dollar Man", and I was reading about him in the TV Times and it said he was 6ft 10. It was the first time I had heard of him.

Hack

There were some ridiculous catchweight matches, and we discussed them once before. But I do disagree with the suggestion catchweights were all bad. They could be used to create interest.