"...did Peter Preston have other Dale Martin bookings even before January 1967?..." Peter Preston was on a Dale Martin show at Hemel Hempstead in 1966, which was broadcast on TV. There were probably others, but as we all know, it is hard to find dates sometimes. "...what use did the other JP promoters make of P. Preston in 1967 and 1968? Did any of them boycott him?..." I can see him working for Norman Morrell, Morrell and Beresford, Relwyskow and Green, Billy Best, Devereaux Promotions. He is back in the Dale Martin fold in 1970 and especially in the second half of the year, lots of Dale Martin dates. He could have worked for Dale Martin prior to 1970, but we would need someone with extensive results to find that out.

Maybe the rivalry between the two camps only stretched as far as competitive, amateur type matches, and not worked (paid) matches?

"...Fascinating, a shame we shall never really know..." Agreed, Anglo! Looks like Orford, Portz and Marino all got draws, the rest were won by Thesz. Thesz would have only been 41 in 1957, so I don't think he would have been overly worried by taking on riskier young wrestlers (if he was as good at defending himself from any double cross as people claim).

I would imagine that was part of the deal, when booking the Thesz tour; we will pay you "X" and you can win all the bouts, but we need a draw for this lad, etc.?

I've probably asked this before, but how well-known would Lou Thesz have been, to the average Wrestling fan over here?, I assume that he was well known to be booked on so many shows, but this would have relied on lots and lots of people reading Wrestling magazines, I guess?

Many of us have been talking to each other on this site, and the old 1Stop Wrestling site, before that, for about 20 years! When I first stumbled across the old 1Stop Wrestling site, it was to find out more information about what had happened to the Wrestlers of my youth, a sort of "where are they now?", that you see about pop groups and actors. I always wanted to believe that the Wrestlers we grew up liking (and hating, of course!) had been well paid and had all retired to a comfortable life. It was buying, and reading, "The Wrestling" that changed a lot of that thinking. It told of Mick McManus in a nice apartment filled with antiques, Jackie Pallo in a bungalow with various old Saab's outside. Kendo Nagasaki in a large country house. Adrian Street living in Florida. So some people had done well, but what about the rest?, I found out that Iron Man Steve Logan ended up working on the sea front, in the North West, Johnny Czeslaw, was in an old person's home, blind, Dynamite Kid was in a wheelchair. Then other questions popped into my head; why did the likes of Mike Marino, Brian Maxine and Count Bartelli hold belts and titles for decades?, did they own the belts?, if so, why did the promoters play along with the fictitious titles that these wrestlers (at least in Bartelli's case) bestow upon themselves? As for results, the interesting thing became "why" did someone go on a long winning streak, or lose to an unlikely opponent. What happened if someone gave you a hard time in the ring (like Cliff Belshaw with Jackie Pallo, in Pallo's book), did the promotor have words with them after? My favourite part of the business, as those who have read things that I put on here will know, was about the international travel, which back in the 60's and 70's, must have been fantastic. Finding results online about the Hell's Angels in Spain, or Judo Chris Adams in Mexico, Ringo Rigby in Los Angeles. Travelling the world at someone else's expense, and working for around 20 minutes a night.

He held the French version of the European Heavyweight Title in the mid 1950's.

Harry Field was a Relwyskow wrestler, originally, and for the first three years appears to only wrestle for Relwyskow and Green, or Norman Morrell/Globe Promotions. His 1948 trip to Mexico is an interesting one, I would love to know how that came about, and wonder if Ted Beresford was involved? From 1949, he wrestles for most of the Joint Promotors (don't see any Wryton Promotions so far?), and some of the indies, like Paul Lincoln, Don Robinson, Deveraux Promotions). What year was the magazine printed? It mentions 1951, so was it printed in 1952 or later?

Interesting stuff!

"...we have to deduce that Harry Fields was an out and out Dale Martin wrestler..." Based on what?

Great stuff, thanks Ost. There is some truth, mixed in with the hype, as we have come to expect in these cases. Harry Fields did indeed travel overseas, to Mexico and France, at least. In France he was billed as "World Welterweight Champion", losing that crown to local lad, Gilbert LeDuc (of course), back in 1950.

Just to be clear, my reference to "styles" was more to do with Cornish and Devon vs Cumberland and Westmorland vs Lancashire, etc., not between the pro-wrestling companies.

Interesting stuff, Ruslan, I think I (personally) would use the word "style", instead of the word "brand", but I can see that both words would probably work, in this instance.

I think we are over-complicating things here, somewhat. I don't think anyone would disagree that, probably due to the rise in TV set ownership, Wrestling took off in the late 50's and early 60's on ITV and one of the main beneficiaries was "the man you love to hate", Mick McManus. I've always said that Mick was as much an icon of the 1960's as The Beatles, Cilla, Twiggy the Mini (skirt), the Mini (car), Carnaby Street, etc. I don't know why he took off, but maybe an exaggerated villainous persona was missing from the TV channels and he was the ultimate (at that time) rule bender. I think we deduced (a while back) that Mick had a printing company and probably had the contract to print all the Dale Martin posters. He seems to have been a loyal company man, enough to tip off his employers about certain things. He was a very famous TV wrestler who could put bums on seats. Did the Dale Martin organization decide that the above made him a good contender to be match maker? Another thought popped into my head, probably way off base, but did we ever know exactly who were the members of the Hurst Park Syndicate? When they bought DM, did Mick see his chance and tell them he wanted a slice of the business or he was off? Didn't Tony St. Clair say that when he was told that Joint Promotions were going to put the heavyweight belt on him, it was Mick who told him, after Tony had been summonsed to Leeds to meet with the board at the Joint board meeting? I think we all suspect that McManus had a lot more involvement than we originally thought, but I still don't see a "power shift" at promoter level, not if we are using 1961 as a starting point, and then saying that the belts changed hands, briefly, years later.

Hmmmmm what you said, Anglo, was "...Once the balance of JP power had swung dramatically in Dale Martin's favour in approx 1961, Dale Martin redressed the title imbalance, claiming control of nearly all of them through the sixties. Dale Martin wanted the titles all right and claimed them as soon as they had the power..." It was, in fact, late 60's, not 1961, not claiming control of nearly all of them through the sixties, but late 60's. I don't claim to have the in-depth knowledge of the Wrestling business that a lot of you lads do, but always thought that many of the names you mention, were brought into business by Northern Promoters, along with being based in the North. Bert Royal was a Morrell man, or at least started his career with him? Zoltan arrived in the UK in Huddersfield and got his break through Ted Beresford or The Crabtree's, same with Al Miquet, I think? Maxine, not sure, I would have guessed being introduced into the business by Buddy Ward via Billy Best Promotions, but I am unsure, as I said. I have no doubt that Dale Martin enabled a lot of Wrestlers to earn very good money, by virtue of their booking of the lucrative southern area they controlled. I'm not sure that Dale Martin suddenly had control of who was awarded the belts, in the 1960's. The fact that the Joint Promotions office was in Leeds, tells its own story. As always, this is all just a bit of fun amongst old blokes who should know better!

Ruslan, just to correct Hack, he got a little confused, due to his age, the actual answer should read....... "...The Pennines were erected long ago by the people of Yorkshire to keep out the people of Lancashire...."

Wasn't Billy Best part of the JP set up as well?

Mike Marino is an interesting case, Bernard. As we know, he was highly regarded in the Dale Martin office, similar to Mick McManus, and both had belts that they kept for a long time. The lineage appears to be Norman Walsh has his unfortunate car accident, the belt then appears to be with Geoff Portz for a short time, and then to Mike Marino, then to Scotland's Andy Robin and then back to Marino. Maybe this was a reward to Mike Marino for his work away from the ring, in the office. But to answer your question, no, I don't see Morrell giving it up if his wrestler is still active.

"...Once the balance of JP power had swung dramatically in Dale Martin's favour in approx 1961, Dale Martin redressed the title imbalance, claiming control of nearly all of them through the sixties. Dale Martin wanted the titles all right and claimed them as soon as they had the power..." Eh?, you will have to give us a bit more information here, Anglo, as I am not sure which titles you mean?, the British titles (Mount-Evans)? They were held by Northern Wrestlers throughout most of the 1960's and through to the end of the TV era, in many cases. The obvious exception being Mike Marino holding the British Light-Heavyweight title for a long, long time. Using your reference point of Dale Martin taking all the titles from 1961, which titles are you talking about? British Lightweight Title Jim Breaks and Alan Miquet traded this one in the 1960's until Jon Cortez, 1970. British Welterweight Title Jack Dempsey until 1966, then Alan Sargeant for a short while. From 1968 onwards, Northern wrestlers. British Middleweight Title All Northern wrestlers apart from McManus in 1967. British Heavy-Middleweight Title Apart from Pallo for a few weeks in 1969 and Steve Logan for a few months in 1975, all Northern Wrestlers. British Light-Heavyweight Title All Northern Wrestlers. British Mid-Heavyweight Title Mike Marino for a few months in 1966 and then continuously from 1969 onwards. British Heavyweight Title All Northern Wrestlers. To me, it looks like lads aligned to Morrell, Beresford and De Relwyskow kept hold of the belts. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are actually saying.

Didn't see that one Andy, but I probably saw it when it first aired, when I was a kid. I know that Steve Veidor appeared in quite a few sketches on the Kenny Everett Show, maybe Kenny was a fan Wrestling?