Big Daddy v John Quinn

Kendo would have stayed over in America in 1972 and probably replaced Verne Gagne as AWA World Champion instead of Nick Bockwinkel in 1975 if it hadn't been for his aunt falling ill. In which case a lot of the history of UK wrestling would have been very different - Big Daddy would have had to find someone else in December 1975 to make him and Haystacks into household names and Brian Dixon would have never had a mentor to teach him how to run a business in 1974, let alone a flagship top star for All Star's late 80s/early 90s Golden Era.

We had a steady relocation of wrestlers across the pond Geoff Portz, Johnny Eagles, Bill Robinson , Les Thornton and more all before Max took over.

I don't think Judo Al was daft enough to let Crabtree pay him £2-50 a night.He certainly did the right thing going across the Atlantic when he did

There are some sad responses to this thread from people who know much more than I do about the inside workings of the UK product. I‘ve said it before but I became more involved in the early 1960s when I cleaned Judo Al Hayes sports car in return for a pass into the Hackney Empire most Saturdays for the Paul Lincoln card. Al never looked short of a few bob but from what I‘m reading here, it’s not surprising that the WWF came in and killed us and even less surprising that he went across the pond to work for the McMahons. Bet his money went up from that £2.50!!!

Yep, £2.50 and the futile promises of lots more work and better money in the future if you keep your nose clean and do as you’re told. ‘Don’t worry I’ll look after ya kid’ Good ole uncle Max.

According to Sam Betts the Crabtrees were capable of paying £2-50 to wrestlers for a nights work in Scotland,after travelling from Leeds.Just an insight into the mind of Max (nobody else matters) Crabtree.

Dunno Mate, It’s the fee Johnny England said Max paid and I’ve no reason to question it. No idea why John Quinn would return to work for Crabtree after that but it sounds very much how Max would behave. He didn’t exactly look after his wrestlers did he? And he certainly didn’t have the business sense to keep them happy, hence why so many of his big stars left to work elsewhere.

I was 13 at the time and the expectation and excitement was incredible. I've never experienced anything like it since. Yes perhaps Shirley could have done more but surely that was down to his brother Max dictating the direction of the bout. If Quinn had defeated Shirley do you honestly thing MJQ & Haystacks would have made it out of Wembley arena in one piece! It was around this time when Marvin Hagler defeated Alan Minter and got bombarded with bottles, glasses etc from angry Minter fans. The £30 fee for MJQ's appearance at Wembley doesn't sound logical to me. If this is true then why on earth would MJQ return to work for Max the following year? Many years later MJQ reputedly fell out with an Austrian and British promoter over pay but that was shortly before he retired at the end of the 1980s. I was gutted to read of Mighty John Quinn's death a couple of years ago, i was a huge fan of his, much missed.

Sad to hear that. By all accounts a nice bloke in the real world. You were always in for a good night when John was on the bill, especially if he had the right opponent most definitely not Big D. I think he drove a cab for a living after wrestling.

Cheers for answering

Johnny England tells this story regarding the Daddy ‘fight’ …

John Quinn thought he was in for a big pay day but Max only gave him £30. Apparently John when looking for Max looking for blood.

Actually I think Johnny England might have told that story on here.

Is John Quinn still with us?

I pretty much agree with SaxonWolf. There was no way that Big D was going to put anyone over. How could he? His skill at wrestling - which he obviously had in his guardsman days - had long vanished as his girth expanded. We all know what should have happened; John Quinn should have picked Daddy up after perhaps poking him in the eyes away from the ref's view, body-slammed and then pinned him. It would have not only made for the biggest return in British wrestling history whilst filling the Royal Albert Hall, but it would also have done for British wrestling what Hulk Hogan lifting Andre the Giant did in the USA - ie people still talking about it 30+ years later. But his refusal to lose or go more than one round was part of the reason real fans began to lose interest whenever he fought, leaving him to the kids. I don't believe that Quinn just wanted the dosh. I'm sure he'd have liked to get involved in a controversial finish rather than just be another just as I'm sure he would have rather fought anyone who had a modicum of skill and who could put on a fight that grabbed the fans attention. That leaves Big D well and truly out of the picture...

All Quinn wanted to do was to get out of the UK with his pocket full of money and to escape to Austria and Germany to enjoy the summer tournaments. Wrestling and losing to Big Daddy was the best way to do that. He was a professional wrestler. Then he would return to the UK early the following year, win the World title, take it to the Independents and earn even bigger pay packets. A smart business man and by all accounts a very nice person.

Another scenario would have been for Quinn to kick Daddy in the belly,and when he doubled over in agony to chop him at the back of the neck,and win by KO. lol

The thing is, apart from the televised Big D vs Haystacks from Royal Albert Hall (where Big D ends up on the floor with Haystacks kicking him around), I don't remember Big Daddy ever really "selling" anyone's offence, and looking like he was hurt or in trouble, maybe he did in the early 70's, maybe not, I don't recall.

The WWF, mid 80's storylines at least had Hulk Hogan being hurt, and injured, before making a big "comeback".

Example: King Kong Bundy faces Hogan and breaks his ribs with his "Avalanche" finishing move. Hogan leaves the ring on a stretcher (on national TV), and Bundy is lined up to face Hogan for the World title at Wrestlemania 2. Now, we all know that Hogan was going to win and keep his title, but for younger viewers and people who still believed that Wrestling was somehow real, this was nail biting, edge of the seat stuff. Hogan takes a beating in the title match (with his ribs still strapped up) and (of course) makes the comeback at the end and wins.

With Big D, the audience never really got that, they never saw him in trouble (that was the job of his smaller tag team partners), they never really thought anyone could beat him, and he couldn't go more than a couple of rounds anyway, as he didn't have the stamina.

Smart booking would have been to have Big D suddenly injured, or hurt in some way, in the opening round, with Quinn, and the ref talking to the officials and making it look like they might have to stop the match, get the audience worried that he was going to lose. Round two, Quinn piles on the pressure (on to an injured arm, or shoulder or something) and almost gets a submission, saved by the bell.

Referee goes over to Big D's corner, as if saying something about stopping the match, MC and officials are also spoken to by the ref. MC makes some type of microphone announcement asking for medical staff/St. John's Ambulance to please come to ringside. Audience panics.

Round three starts, Big D makes the comeback, and wins, audience applauds, Big D leaves with his image intact, and (more importantly) Quinn has risen even higher, by coming so close to a victory.

Having read the Ryan Danes book, and seen the Daddy vs John Elijah match, its clear that Shirley Crabtree was a very good wrestler, to whom fame came too late for him to wrestle with his genuine strength and ability. Max Crabtree was clearly the man who decided the results, and as you all rightly say, he missed many a trick in creating proper narratives. I don't like American wrestling, but its something I get the impression they do well. It's basic story telling. I don't feel Shirley should bear the resentment that is rightly aimed at Max for this. He was a very powerful promoter. Shirley took a lot of defeats and falls in his career before the Daddy image kicked in and became so popular. They were right to exploit it, but wrong to overdo it, and I agree that he needed to lose here and there to assist his credibility. But that is all history now. They were, for all that, great characters and Daddy, Haystacks, and Kendo will probably always be the three most remembered wrestlers of the 1970s and 1980s. And to bring it back to Quinn, he would have been the ideal man to keep the petrol in the tank at this point. A great performer.

This was the last time Big Daddy was allowed to lose on TV (although there were two or three - strictly untelevised - occasions in the 1980s where this scenario was rerun in front of a shocked family audience. Plus another handful - again, no TV cameras allowed - where Daddy's plastic bucket and illegally entering the ring without tagging ended up in a DQ or DDQ). What happened to scare Max off from trying this again? Was ITV over-run with letters from parents about how their poor little precious snowflakes were in floods of tears and couldn't sleep at night.

It still puzzles me that Quinn (or indeed Stax) was never allowed to beat Shirley, thus setting up a return match in which the latter could emerge triumphant. Surely it wouldn't have broken the kids' hearts all that much to see Daddy lose on the odd occasion?

I don't know how Max and co. couldn't see that Shirley's aura of invincibility increasingly lacked credibility, especially as he got older and less fit. Then again, they let great grapplers like Rocco slip away to rival promoters, so perhaps I shouldn't be too surprised that foresight wasn't their strong point!

does this count for anything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUJyWR5OtA

While I respect all posters opinion, at that time I would have been engrossed with that match too. It's only through the internet and sites and groups like this one, that I've learnt more about the workings of both the promoters and the wrestlers. There's one thing about that bout the atmosphere it generated and media attention it was akin to a top boxing bout. As I say I've since learnt a lot regards the workings and wrestlers thanks to this group. Long may I be educated.

Did Quinn ever suffer another loss in the UK by KO or falls and submission?