Legitimate Injuries in UK rings

Hahaha!

I usually delete these undesirables but this is rather amusing. How on earth did he select this dormant thread?

Very interesting article

You'll like this. A lot.

Eddie Rose pays tribute to wrestlers' and their injuries

Wrestlers' Injuries By Eddie Rose

Some of the chain matches produced a reasonable amount of blood

This week's midweek addition will be an article on "Wrestlers' Injuries" contributed by Eddie Rose. Launching Wednesday (as long as we remember).

A pal of mine remembers hearing from his front row seat at Morecambe Winter Gardens the words “Yes, Yes, I Bloody Mean It!!” from a wrestler in a painful armlock.

It's a very strange story. I was only just on the cusp of being a teenager, so the memory of this is very vague. I need to rely on the rest of you for details.

This just gets more mysterious. Let's put aside anything Pete Roberts may or may not have thought unless the man himself comes on here and tells us we can't take anything for granted.

A judge decided Masambula's injuries were worth £2000. Morrell was willing to go to court rather than settle in advance, not just leaving open the possibility of losing but also exposing the pre-determined result of the match in an age when it mattered. It was 1975, Morrell was near the end. Now we've had lots of criticism of Morrell but as far as I know he always defended the business and upheld it as legitimate. Was he now willing to go public and allow it to be believed it's all fake? Why would he do that? Was there something he knew that gave him confidence the court case would go in his favour? None of the newspaper reports I've read mention if Pete Roberts opinion had been sought. We seek it Pete.

Then there's Billy Shinfield. No ordinary ring man. As bKendo1 says a promoter of his own shows, involved in boxing and wrestling for donkeys years. He knew the business, he couldn't be intimidated. So why would he carry the can when the promoter was responsible for what went on in his shows? Seems like Billy was agreeable to go along with it (something) in public. Morrell was willing to take a risk and lost. Was that over-confidence? Masambula had given us twenty years of enjoyment. A hard working, reliable man who had earned a lot of money for his bosses. Did he have resentment?

Then there's the possibility that if the injury was not as serious as it appeared, and let's not leave out the possibility that it was a serious injury. But if it wasn't as serious as it seemed were Masambula's subsequent actions pre-planned. Or did he suffer a genuine injury and capitalised it? It's sad we are discussing one of our greatest stars in this way, but as Anglo Italian keeps reminding us, I'm still trying to work out what was going on.

Yes that was the judgement Hack but Anglo stated Pete Roberts expected it,Dickie Davies believed it btw he doubt he did .So how come ultra shrewd Norman paid out.Billy was no ordinary ring crew he was very much involved with Morell and promoted his own shows.As I said ring crew wouldn't be liable on promotions if any one checked that had cover the promoter was liable.Billy Shinfield was a wise old bird which begs the question why did they all go along with mas pension pot.

The ring man Billy Shinfield carried (most of) the can. He was ordered to pay 2/3 of Masambula's £20000 award, with Morrell Beresford paying the rest.

Most people, including wrestling fans didn’t realise the injuries that occurred whilst in the ring. Many of them life changing.

Most wrestlers suffered injuries, Long term injuries that affect me to day include back and neck problems and have affected me since 1980s. Still receive regular treatments. Lost a total of nine teeth to slow reaction (mine) and clumsy elbows and knees (theirs). Stitches in lip/mouth, dislocated ribs (lifting Dale Storm for a body slam), costal sternal subluxation (dislocation of 2nd rib) versus Count Bartelli. I remember Gentleman Jim Lewis wrestling a week after breaking ribs; the bout did not last ;long but Jimmy would not let the audience down.

Most of the wrestlers suffered similar injuries which we classified as "minor". I lost three teeth and had a cut lip courtesy of Ian "Mad Dog" Wilson during a bout at Llandudno. Promoter Orig Williams dashed to the ringside as the round ended and I thought he was going stop the bout. No, He said have a mouthful of water but don't spit it out: let it gush out when the round begins. The audience will love it! Thanks Orig!

I wrote a book a few years back called "Worn Out Bodies" . Now you know why.

Eddie Rose (Manchester).

Peter Roberts knew about Masambula's injury before the fight ...

Masambula's injury in the ring?

I think we have read a few times of wrestling rings being old, cheap, shoddy, and people getting injured when the floor boards under the padding come loose and stuck up. I seem to think Pallo talked about this in his book.

Hi Anglo. From your own A-Z.

Ernest Baldwin -broken leg v Billy Joyce may 1961.

Further information , it was May 6th 1961 at Newcastle.

Don't know about the other broken leg.

You're right Bernard. Here's an update, but even these don't all convince me:

Les Prest’s career-ending injury

Stefan Milla’s Brighton shoulder dislocation

Gwyn Davies unbalancing Kendo Nagasaki

Marty Jones' arm dangling in a Croydon cage.

Big Daddy concussing John Quinn (do we have real proof?)

Mark Rocco getting a posting wrong (therefore self-inflicted)

Ernie Baldwin's two broken legs (need opponents)

Dale Storm's career-ending injury (need opponent)

The fact remains that, collectively, we witnessed fewer than five legitimate injuries in the manny thousands of bouts we watched.

Plenty of you remain convinced that the "inevitable" injuries were all happening in bouts elsewhere.

To add to my post, at the Lofty Pickford bleedathon, a call went out over the p.a. system for a Doctor to go back stage a.s.a.p. and a 'bull dust' cry went up. Most of the crowd jeered as the youngster with the broken ankle was carried out of the ring, not believing he had an injury of any type.

I think one thing particular to the British style of wrestling (although we had similar in NZ until the 60s) was the amount of bouts stopped "due to injury" or "knockout". Then the guys were wrestling the next day somewhere else.

To add to Anglo's list of injuries; surely Ernie Baldwin's broken leg, (twice)causing him to give up wrestling needs to be on there.

Another great story, Nightlight.

But we have seen wrestlers down the years creating whoppers of great stories. We need to treat with great skepticism any stories in books. Books make money. Any words will do.

I remain convinced that the wrestlers will have fed that Garfield (not Alan the Great) all sorts of codswallop, which he, unquestioningly and totally commercially, will have stuck into a cobbled together book.

That book is not the Bible.

Here, we have scores of pairs of eyes that each witnessed thousands of bouts live.

We have witnessed, collectively, very few in-ring injuries.

I propose the case that the bouts we witnessed were nothing like as hard-hitting as we would like to imagine.

Wrestling Heritage's remit from the outset.

In Simon Garfield's book, Mal Sanders talks about losing a pint or so of blood after catching himself on the apron of the ring and hitting an artery. A ringside punter apparently suffered a heart attack whilst witnessing it.

My recollection is that as Professor Adiwasser Calderon put a lot of dislocatd shoulders back

for all the injuries we have mentioned here there's countless more that are not documented and were still happening right up to the covid lockdown. Wrestling because of the physicality will have injuries occur but as stated a lot of the time it happens so innocuous that the punters didn't believe it.

Lots of interesting thoughts on and around the subject, and considering what must have been. Some wear and tear long term damage like Bert Royal’s ribs and Bobby Barnes’s knees.

However, the whole point at the outset was to list legitimate injuries sustained in a bout. Therefore I’ll now list the qualifying entries so far:

Les Prest’s career-ending injury

Stefan Milla’s Brighton shoulder dislocation

Gwyn Davies unbalancing Kendo Nagasaki

Marty Jones' arm dangling in a Croydon cage.

Big Daddy concussing John Quinn (do we have real proof?)

Mark Rocco getting a posting wrong (therefore self-inflicted)

Ernie Baldwin's two broken legs (need opponents)

Dale Storm's career-ending injury (need opponent)

Our combined thoughts over approx thirty years watching have come up with a generous six, None seems to feature blood. I propose that wherever there was blood, it was deliberate.

Seeing so many of you surmising that there must have been countless injuries leaves me stunned. This is wrestling. All an illusion. We have to see it and know it for it to be.

The very fact that Hack and others state there must have been “many others” speaks for itself. We just didn’t see them. We would have done, had there been so many. And why were so few reported?

By extension, can we say there was a legitimate in-ring injury in UK wrestling about once every four years?

The potential to give and take pain was part of the appeal for many fans

It was a hard business. Many of us would have liked the limelight but not the reality. There's no reason to doubt Les, or Dale Storm, who has told us previously of his injury that ended his career. Or many others that suffered genuine life changing injuries. Or the battered bodies we see today. But I don't think that is what this thread is about. Let's face it we couldn't believe half, or less, of what we read in the programmes or magazines. The death of Billy Two Rivers appears an over exaggeration, and no doubt were many of other minor injuries we read about. An injustice to those who did suffer genuine injury.

While wrestling Terry Jowett at Middlesbrough town hall for promoter Brian Dixon. I fell badly on my left ankle and didn’t just break it, I shattered it having to have a plate,5 screws and 3 pins fitted. Put me out of commission for 8 months and ending my wrestling career 🤼‍♀️.

February 1981 while wrestling Terry Jowett at Middlesbrough for promoter Brian Dixon. I landed badly on my left ankle and shattered it,having to have 3 pins, a plate and 4 small and one large screws fitted. I was out of commission for 8 months and endings my wrestling career 🤼‍♀️ .

Bob Barrett once dripped blood along the corridor at Wolves Civic Hall after a beating from Marty Jones

the famous kellet/thompson life from Wembley with blood flying everywhere looked legit from 2nd row from the front... unless somebody had a pump it did seem to be spurting out and spreading👀

Robert Gastel the Parisian wrestler who fought Billy Robinson on ITV in 1967 is shown with a dislocated arm in his 1959 match against Gaby Calderon. Seems in legit discomfort when pushes it back in place

I saw Stefan Milla retire a match due to a shoulder injury (at Brighton) and a couple of issues of THE WRESTLER later, they reported that he had dislocated his shoulder. In Australia, Ed Lock and I witnessed Lofty Pickford bleed a gusher from the forehead (self inflicted) and he was told by the Dr. who treated him, that Lofty was a very lucky man to have reached the hospital when he did. Ed and I were also there when Marty Jannetty broke a rib and had to call a finish only minutes after his match had commenced. We both also witnessed a young guy, taking a very simple bump and legitimately breaking his ankle.

Totally agree Anglo, these two were businessmen

lets be honest if and of the moves, blows, throws were legit one of them would have had ended up in hospital for a while. McManus would not have put himself in that position

Well, we all have different opinions. I just remain convinced that every second of all McManus-Pallo fights were exactly as the wrestlers wanted. Absolute zero going over the top or intending to harm.

They were wrestling at least five times a week. With plenty of sidelines. Their nightly 25 minutes were work, art. Do a good job and enjoy the other 23 hours of the day.

They were a focus of national attention during their feud and had to get things dead on for the health of the business as a whole. That 1967 bout had so much build-up, they had to deliver a spectacle on the Spectacular bill. Claret was deemed sufficient.

McManus would in my opinion have been absolutely the last one to start taking things seriously. Anyone annoyed him and their bookings and tv work disappeared.

As Pallo says in his book, real disputes were more likely to be settled in the dressing room than in the groin.

I agree that they probably weren't great mates, maybe they had been in the fifties until "Mr TV" materialised, but I think everyone agrees that they worked in perfect harmony together.

I think Pallo mentioned in "You Grunt, I'll Groan" that he had occasionally cut himself in matches, to add to the drama.

In terms of Mick McManus working stiff on Pallo, I guess it could have happened, but Pallo was a boxer, i am sure he could have easily gone "off script" if he wanted to (or needed to), with anyone.

I thought the match wasn't much of a wrestling bout and more of Mick making sure Pallo bled , could it have been a work that went further than intended, Mick didn't have a lot of love for Pallo and was probably working quite stiff. I know Mick was a very light worker, but I reckon he could be stiff when he needed to be.

Do you believe that that McManus-Pallo cut was legit, Powerlock? I would certainly include it as an injury if it were legit. But that was the RAH and 100% planned, Pallo merely did a Danny Lynch. It wasn't on tv and ringside seats were extortionately high: they probably considered themselves to be giving value for money and Pallo probably got an extra pony.

That Dave is asking whether McManus ever caused a legit injury to anyone is a credit to the great man's work. But apart from being tiny, he was 100% pro and one of the "lightest" workers. I would say he would hardly ever, if ever at all, have been in a bout with a legit injury to either man. But I would also guess that he was in plenty of bouts where his opponent was carried out of the ring, just like Clive Myers in their tv bout, "Spring-heeled and Surly" in Armchair Corner.

forgive me for asking but did mick mcmanus ever cause a legit injury to an oppenent

I remember reading that Bert Royal had suffered with broken ribs, during his time in the ring. Very painful indeed.

Part of the Professionalism of the wrestlers that there were few serious injuries. Remember a wrestler having a dislocated shoulder blade and his opponent helping to put it back in place. That was painful

From my experience, very often the real injuries got no heat...I came out of a ring at Noriwch, did my knee ligaments in and could hardly stand let alone walk. I got carried out back to the dressing room amidst a chorus of fake, fix etc !

I have seen one or two injuries over the years but looking back it was a small local show where the worst injury occurred, the wrestler turned and then screamed and hit the floor, nobody realised what had happened, crowd started booing, the lights went up it had turned out the wrestler had dislocated his knee, ambulance called and ropes were taken down to help the paramedics stabilized the leg and get him out of the ring easier. The show didn't continue .

I was at Croydon when Jones was injured. I remember thinking the cage looked dangerous and Marty actually ran his fingers over the spikes before hand looking concerned. His distress was clear as he went straight to Danny Collins and offered his arm for submission. The cage didnt have a door and a second had to come with a ratchet and remove one of the clamps to let him out.

There was one that I read about, think it was in Adrian Street's book series, John Quinn was the recipient, and it was Big D who caused it, by giving Quinn his reverse-elbow-backdrop move, which looked spectacular of course, but with Mighty John being a big bloke in his own right, Big D couldn't keep him in place, and Quinn slid down Big D's back, so by the time they hit the canvas, Quinn's head was under Shirley's backside, and he took the full 24 stones on the skull.

He was concussed from it, as you would be!

John Naylor and Keith "Rip" Rawlinson, of course.

I would imagine a lot of legit injuries were just not landing properly during a match.

Hi Graham,

Your post sums I why I started this.

We all know in general and in all probability and statistically ... it must have been so. As I said at the outset, there is no shortage of vagueness. But details of real in-ring injuries are kept very limited.

So Maxine had a broken arm. He could have sustained that playing his guitar for all we know.

In wrestling, it serves to be skeptical. Those odd bouts we have seen with one wrestler winning in a very short time - weren't they perhaps signs of an injured wrestler appearing?

Logic tells me the promoters would have made a big story of injuries: with details underlining the legitimacy and danger of it all.

But they didn't. Since we know they weren't stupid, I would like to identify their reasons for covering up, I have probably just mentioned one: to allow injured wrestlers to appear.

Instead, we hear limited snippets decades later of alleged injuries.

As in many aspects of wrestling: it stinks.

Broken ribs, back problems, hip problems, dislocated shoulders the list goes on. All part of the grappling game.

Didn't Marty Jones suffer quite a nasty arm injury during a cage match at Croydon in the 1990s?

Ernie Baldwin suffered a broken leg twice in the ring in his career, before turning to refereeing.

Rocco suffered a bad leg injury on a corner post as a result of hitting a sharp bolt holding the ring together. He says he was left hanging by his ligament! 😳