From what I know of this site Hack would take some beating when it comes to Independent shows. I often went and at the time I found most shows a bit below the Belle Vue Atmoshpere.
Now I look back nostalgically at those days and am so glad I went to see these guys. I have a lot of good memories of Jack Cassidy shows and for his efforts I hold him in high esteem and he also seems to have had an interesting career. I know probably the top promoter was Paul Lincoln but there are lots of other questions,
Did you have a favorite. Mine has to be Jack.
The million dollar question is which wrestlers and who was the most well known wrestler NEVER or almost NEVER to have worked for joint promotions.
It's amazing that over the years most got a taste.
The man that springs to mind for me I believe had a try out with Joint , but I am not sure if that was training or if he was booked. (Lord Bertie Topham)
I bet Hack can throw a few in.
What about the bills as well , were they not the most outrageous billing
What did you like about the Independents?
And credit to Manchester, producing a cowboy and an Indian.
Here you are guys
At a wrestling show in Kilkenny ‘Roughhouse Jack Martin’ takes on Seán O’Shea. Can this spectacle be called sport or is it actually some sort of choreographed torture? Wrestler ‘Wollongong Willie’ explains it is indeed a sport, bound to a set of strict rules and regulations.
Does anyone know who was "Woolagong Willie" ?
Morecambe Guardian that one , I notice he also boxed a lot at Preston. Often billed out of Salford.
I have looked through some of the Salford clubs for his brother wrestling. Thought he might have shown up at the Devonshire in Broughton , but no luck.
Man Mountain was often Bill Benny but in wrestling other people copy the ideas. But was Mark a really big guy , I ask because as a boxer , your granddad seems to be a ten stoner , but of course it is possible for brothers to be vastly different.
This might be a turn up for the books but Gregory Peck is claimed to be Young Vulcan:
Beckie , your grandfather really was famous. I can see him on boxing bills from about 1926. Pro Wrestling only started here in December 1930 and in February 1931 I have a unique bill where Boxing and Wrestling was combined. Your Grandfather is on the boxing.
He was from Salford, yes my first post. I know a lot about my grandfather he was famous in the North West as a Boxer. He did do some wrestling, but boxing was him. His younger brother Mark tried to live up to his hero brother, but never made it big, I know Mark wrestled in clubs and fairgrounds in the north west but I cannot find any information on him
Mark Kenyon , if it is the right man, made the papers in 1949 for breaking into a factory in Broughton and got sent down for a year.
It was reported that Mark Edward Kenyon was 31 although I make him born 1917 in Manchester.
He was sentenced at Bolton and the report did state that he boxed and wrestled in Fairgrounds.
I don't recall the name Beckie. Where was he from? It's good to have you making your first post. Stay around.
Hi Phil My Grand father was a professional Boxer in the 1920’s & 30’s his boxing name was Al Kenny. His name was Albert Kenyon. He had a brother Mark Kenyon who use to Wrestle but I don’t think he done it professional
Beckie
Yes Hack and this promoter didn't give a fig for his fraudulent antics.
After letting down the people at one venue he moved on with this tour and here i find him doing it again.....TWICE
Hi Tom H. Charlie Scott did work for Joint. He was at Newcastle a few times.
I went to the Merry Fiddlers a few times in the early 1960's and was told on this site that the promoter was Mrs Assiratti.
I know that Bert was on there pretty often at that time.Probably after he left Joint.
Moving on to another dimension of the Independents , what really let them down from time to time was Fraudulent Promoting. I once fell for this by going to see "Son of two Rivers" only to be very let down by the scam.
In the example below and looking at the roster , there was no way ever that Mick Mcmanus was going to turn up. From a legal standpoint it was another Mick advertised as he was MacManus.
Although in Ireland the promoter was from Manchester.
I saw Jimmy Lewis about that time Bernard and he was still around welterweight. Of course we don't know who Dr Death was and the independents could disregard the weights.
I was looking at the bill for 12th march 1968 from edgewick town hall and it truck me that Lewis must have put a lot of weight on later in his career to take on Dr Death.
I saw Lewis on with Bernard Murray and he was generally on with welterweights.
Saw Mir Zaffer Ealam, Reg Ray and Arthur Ricardo, the latter countless times, at Newcastle which was Morrell promotions - 100% Joint. Saw Ray and Ricardo on TV as well.
We were talking on this thread on page 2 about the Monster and who may have come up with the idea.
Is this the earliest sighting.
Northern Promotions. Hack may need to correct me ....is that Cyril Knowles.
Should have made it clear on the last thread that the venue is THE TOWER ......NEW BRIGHTON.
Interesting that the promoter was Dick the Dormouse and his wife Jessie Rogers.
They get in there before Brian Dixon with that name "All Star"
Luxford, sullivan and Crawley worked for Joint.I don't know of a Tarantula doing, though he did use different names. Ian Dowland will know. Ian? Who was the Warlord.Steve Serene will know. Steve? Terry Crystal will know quite a bit about these. Terry?
For the forum to survive we need more readers to join in. There are quite a few members, more than these three, who can add comments about these bills.
And then going into the years where Joint as we knew it had broken up and what was left was down to Max Crabtree to keep it going, others who had never promoted before had their own ideas about finding new wrestlers. I should imagine some of these never worked Joint.
For whatever reason Jackie Pallo had gone the way of others and left.
Nice find Ron. Twentieth Century had been mopped up by Joint around March of that year. That's when the Monster moved to Joint. You've demonstrated Max went back wrestling for Joint so I can't see them putting up with him promoting independently at the same time.
Ah, you fooled me Ron.
I'm not sure about Max creating The Monster, it was just a guess because I suspected you knew something I didn't. I wouldn't be surprised though if it was Max or Norman Berry. Norman Berry worked in the publicity department for Morrell and then left him to set up Twentieth Century with Max.
In 1962 a number of independents, including Twentieth Century and George Kidd/Joe D'Orazio were absorbed by Joint. Norman Berry wrote a pro Joint article in a 1962 Joint Programme, so presumably he was back with them. Whether or not Max went back to work with Joint in 1962 I don't know. Max seemed to be all over the place, working as an independent and with Relwyskow at the same time it seems.
In that thread about who you would like to meet socially Max would be a good one as he is one of the last to hold the secrets; but would we get an honest answer?
The Undertakers were definitely working for Joint before Max took over. I would guess Martin Conroy brought them over. I think Kung Fu may have worked for Joint pre Max but I'm not sure. He seems to have joined Joint early 1974, which was around the time Max was working for the northern Joint promoters.
After finding perhaps the earliest ever sighting of Quasimodo on 20th Century promotions , I wonder if Hack or anyone else might be able to spot anything in two other bills.
An early Ghoul after Bomber Bates's retirement.
And maybe a very early sighting of The Monster.
Are there any other Max Crabtree creations here.
Sorry Ron, my mistake!
I took the date to be 1965, not 1968. Must go to have my glasses checked.
In your later article with the 5 various bills both their names were spelt correctly, it would seem that only the Cork bill had their names as “Jan Svajick and Ray St. John”?
Cheers
Hi Ron. I agree with you that it looks too big to be Coverdale, but the quality is so bad that I wouldn't say for sure that this was the Bates version. He was certainly fleshy on the upper body and arms like the picture.
Just testing out this new forum (I've been having problems) with a couple of independent bills from London.
Meru Ullah who posted on heritage at one time.
The ability to fool us all is amazing with the Independents.
This time I am back to that bill in 1965 that Phil Kenyon queried.
Three nights running and far enough away between venues at that time to get away with it there is hardly a scrap of difference between three bills.
Svajick and StJohn are there , but Johnny Saint before his joint days is with the same opponent and the tag bout is the same every night.
Unbelievable evidence of the nature of Wrestling and the Indy's in particular.
Those three towns take a fair bit of travelling.
A great point Bernard about the Ghoul because I have another example for you with a picture , although a poor one. It's 1965 and he is working out with Shaun O'Shea.
I am suspecting that the promoter (Maybe O'Shea) was using an old picture of the Bomber Bates Ghoul.
Indeed O'Shea's daughter told me that dad and John Bates were great mates.
However by 1965 John bates had died.
I may be wrong but I think the guy in the picture is too huge to be Bill Coverdale.
I can't remember Coverdale though so not sure.
But it is Coverdale who was Bates's main successor as the Ghoul and the very same month (six days later) I have Coverdale on a bill with O'Shea so that is what I suspect.
I have still got the same problem, that I can't make a post, go to another thread and post again.
The site and my system won't let me.
However thanks to Ron's tip about going via the old site for WH,then Forum, I can post that way.
Thanks again Ron.
I wanted to say that it was an interesting spelling for The Ghoul at the Majestic ballroom Mallow.
Does anyone have any ideas who was under the mask please?
I think I may have the answer Phil. The year I had in mind was 1968 and correct me if I am wrong , had you left for Switzerland by then.
It is a fantastic five bills and there is a gap between the 4th and 5th that leaves room for even more bouts on what I assume was a short tour.
Ray Thunder fights Mick Mullions four times also and Woolagong Willie and Sean O'Shea also fight five times.
Digital newspapers have helped expose a wonderful deception.
I am still laughing now.
The whole thing is even more prominent with the INDEPENDENTS due to the small rosters.
Stu Hart got away with the same on the Calgary Loop.
Hi Ron,
Regarding the bill from Cork 1965, I noticed that it was Jan Svajick vs. Ray St. John and not Andros Svajick (various names were used) Ian St. John.
We were training all together on a weekly basis in the same gym and the 5 or 6 times per week never came up in discussions, as it would normally do!
I'm therefore wondering whether this particular bill was really my old friends Andros & Ian?
Cheers
Hi Les,
Sorry but no it wasn’t the Ray Steele that you were asking about.
The Ray Steele (was his real name) on the bill is from Rishton, a small town near Accrington. To my knowledge he never wrestled as a professional, but was a good strong middleweight as an armature. He refereed mainly in the north of England working for various independents.
He was a PTI in the R.A.F. during his national service, and would visit our gym on a regular basis, mostly giving us exercises on keeping fit.
Cheers
The independent promoters used some great wrestlers. In fact there were few wrestlers that didn't work for the independents at one time or another. Not just at the beginning and end of their careers either. Mike Marino, George Kidd, Eddie Capelli, Ken Joyce, Ray Hunter, Georges Gordienko were amongst those who worked for the independents at the peak of their career.
Unfortunately there was some very poor practice amongst a few that brought the sport into disrepute and cheated the fans. I'm thinking of the Nick McManners, Jackie Powell, and Billy Red Rivers of this world who were there to hoodwink fans into thinking they were getting to see big names. All unnecessary too as the independents could put on good shows and didn't need to resort to these tactics.
Even Cape Promotions, my local independents who I would put amongst the good guys advertised Buddy Rogers, Whipper Watson and Nick McManners. This at a time they were using Marino, Larsen, Angus, the Pyes, Saint, Topham, Wildman, Klondykes, Ingleburgh etc.
I only saw Dave Finch as Dave Finch, never as El Medico, though he does seem to have mostly wrestled as the latter. Dave and Bill Tunney were always in good matches.
Thanks Mark. Read The Men In Suits in the Promoters sections of wrestlingheritage.com
Parts 4,6,7, 8 and 9 will tell you more about the independent promoters.
Sad to say I've heard of few of these wrestlers. I always thought the best wrestlers were on tv. When I watched wrestling I didn't know about these independent promoters. This webiste has opened my eyes. Thanks. this is a great topic.
Hi Ron,
I know for a fact that Bill Tunney and El Medico always put on a great show for the independents when they were wrestling each other.
Here is a bill from Morecambe from 1964, where I myself was up against The Great Marcus, who incidentally was Joe Reid’s son!
Cheers
Re: Julian should of read, Red Indian. The promoter was Mel Read who was originally from Co Durham, but was base in Walthamstow (had a pub there called The Comangate) also had a wrestling/boxing both and was well in with the krays alalleory!!! Les
I too am pretty sure Orig Williams didn't wrestle for Joint. More impressive independent workers that didn't work for Joint would include a light heavyweight from Preston by the name of Bill Tunney.
Bobby Barron was another big name on the independent circuit, though he might have worked for Joint under the name Dave Shillitoe.
Jack Taylor was a big name on the independents and brought dozens of youngsters into the business, some of whom made good careers mostly with the opposition - Mick Collins, Taffy Jenkins, Ricky Wiseman, Ron Marino and Jack's brother Ray.
I didn't see him but Killer Ken Davies (the welterweight not Gwyn Davies' father) slways seemed respected and well known.
Let's not forget Mike Agusta. He's famous now.
Both Dirty Dicky & Bpy Devo speak about the tournament down at the Isle of white at our Monday night mornings Nick Capone alias Gordon Mudd is still with us, he is 81 now and still goes to the gym 3 times a week. Getting back to lighter weights not wrestling for joint, how about Tony Andrassi and Mal Crossling! they were ffast.dont think they wrestled for Joint rather?. Best. Regards. Les
Hi RON: Jimmy boy Devo is 99 per-cent sure that Orig Williams never wrestled for Joint Proms. Les
Ezra Francis was mentioned and had many guises such as Zulu or Oodooma or other Zulu alias's.
By tributing these guys on here we can see into the bills for others. This bill shows StJohn and Swazick working together and as mentioned Shaun O'Shea
As we both think Jimmy that good Les it's best that we don't tell him.
Sorry I've messed up the last few lines, they should read Relwyskow & Green promotions who I wrestled for for a few months. Les
Yes Alan : Jimmy Devlin was a perfect example who had the chance to work for Joint, but no not likely, and the same goes for Jim Mcormack. I myself did wrestle for Relwysko and Gre for Agee months . Regards Les
I've just returned a couple of hours ago from the Reunion in Ayr to find this great thread. I've often thought we should one day give some thought to this subject. As many of you know my heart has always been with the independents. They produced some great wrestlers. At their best they were better than Joint because they had to be, but at their worst there were shady characters who did dodgy things that did nothing for the reputation of wrestling and cheated the fans. Put that minority to one side, and put aside those wrestlers who had very short careers working for just one independent promoter. The majority of opposition promoters were reputable and opposition wrestlers could match their Joint counterparts.
Being away for a week some of the obvious names have already been mantioned, darn it. Dwight J Ingleburgh is the most obvious name. Klondyke Bill too. He was no Giamt Haystacks - he was more versatile and could do a six round match giving value for money. Andreas Svajic was one I was going to say, but see Phil got in first. I agree with Phil that Andreas and Ian were superb lightweights, who could have matched the Cortez brothers, Saint, Miquet etc. They both did a few matches for Joint.
Who else? Earl McCready (Dai Sullivan's son) was a good un, and I'm not aware of him working for Joint. Neither did Pedro the Gypsy, who could have been a big success on tv. I'm surprised Les did not mention Jimmy Devlin, what do you think Les. Jimmy had the chance to work for Joint but was an anti-Joint man like his mentor Jim Stockdale and Dwight J Ingleburgh. Although I didn't see them myself whilst in Scotland there was a lot of talk of The Harlequins (Scott and Jim Morgan) who quite a few said were good enough to have made it for Joint Promotions. Ezra Francis (Zulu, Sugar Ray DoDo, The Witchdoctor) was good enough to have done well on Joint. A mention of Bob Sherry. A tough welterweight in the Dempsey mould. He did wrestle for Joint, but not a lot as far as I know, so we could include him.
There must be many more, but that's a few to be going on with.
Hi Ron: sorry I never new Shaun O'shea, but I had heard of him on occations. But another star from our area who like Jack Jefferson, was Gentleman Jim Stockdale alias The Blue Angel also promoter and gym owner who was anti joint. Regards.
I never saw an Independent's bill so I can't comment there.
But on the Wrestling spectacular bill, Mick McManners wouldn't be a certain long standing champion from New Cross would it? Or just a play on the name?.
What about Jack Jefferson , he was Shaun O'Shea wasn't he.
Don't think he went with Joint. Did plenty of promoting as well.
Great examples Les and maybe Dwight (Sam) should be ahead of Bertie Topham in terms of Fame.
Could be interesting , wonder how many there were who did not work for Joint.
Klondyke Bill massive name I would have thought.
Dwight J Ingleberg (Sam Betts) for short, he has wrestled all over the world and not once in his 80 plus years ever considered wrestling for Joint Promotions, and most of you must have seen him wrestle, he was one hell of a wrestler a really good grafter and the perfect villain, but what a gentleman outside the ring. All the independent promoters loved him. Another star of the independent promoters was the incredible Klondyke Bill, who for 33 stone would go several rounds and his and his feet would leave the floor not like the super heavyweights of that time. Please don't get confused with Klondike Jake who did work for Joint Promotions for a while. Regards Les.