Whatever all these brands (I suppose) are about...?! I don't have a programme from the times when DM still had their own champs. Unfortunately. Would love to see one. Thank you all. 1950s - OAKELEY'S MODERN INTL CACC FREE-STYLE AT BELLE VUE You tell me what it is...please. PRO FREE STYLE under Lord Mount Evans Rules.

Thank you, yes there was a photo of Jack with a certain belt. I was approached by his relative with the questions re titles and etc and I want to believe that I answered them to the best of my ability and my knowledge, and I also asked them to share info about that particular trophy whether they know which title/promotion that belt represented. As always I failed. As soon as I asked my question they stopped talking to me. Lol. One day I should learn a lesson and finally let go this bad habit of talking to "wrestler's relatives" lol.

now I have to ask this question - where from do we know that JACK DALE was a champion in the 30s or in the 40s...is it that we know that from his own words, I mean he claimed this middleweight title on his promotional posters, programmes. Was he ever recognized as a champ by any of the pro wrestling organizations whether it was from the South or from the North when he was still an active pro wrestler.

Thank you. I think the rivalry between these two gyms (read two businesses) of course existed and was solely and only about the profit, as to which of the two makes more money, because they both were from the same locality, and of course it did matter which wrestlers are billed more, and more often through the big local pro wrestling promotions that were running shows in that particular area. this to me was a very regional rivalry. because in the South they had their own wrestlers. North-West didn't supply Southern pro wrestling companies with their wrestling material, did they?

By the way this JOE COATES needs some closer look at his deeds. Just sayinnn...we, the fans need more than this: "Joe Coates Joe Coates was a 1930s boxing promoter in Derbyshire. Interestingly he sometimes staged combined boxing and dancing shows. The orchestra would play in the boxing ring except for an interlude during which two boxing matches took place. In 1939 he staged his first wrestling show at Brook Street Baths in Sutton in Ashfield, and following the war promoted in Sutton and Kirkby in Ashfield. In the 1950s he promoted in association with Joint Promotions. In 1979 he announced he was to cease promoting due to falling attendances."

not that simple obviously, now think, each and every single one of these above said pro wrestling companies had their own very unique "brand of pro wrestling" (hahaha someone's gonna have a heart attack over the exceeding number of my "brands" and "North-Wests") and champions in each and every weight class there possibly could be, lol. this is how simple it all has actually been.

I am leaning towards an idea that title lineages in fact existed within pro wrestling companies but outside them they meant nothing. that is how sometimes we see confusing info just like the one I brought up. I think that the title T. Mann held the actual JP Mount Evans title has is not related to neither Jack Dale's claims nor his company's H. Fields DM British middleweight title. I don't know who was the first official JP Middleweight champ, very likely someone from the North West (lol, I said it again) either Riley's or Charnock's man. In the 1960s Mann was too old, I suppose, who was the regular middleweight champ, BERT ROYAL? Please correct me, Ron. Thank you.

wow, what a historical document it is, thank you very much for sharing. alright then, FREE STYLE it is, and by the way it is in fact different from all other "brands" of the similar product, at least on the paper it is. I wonder how old is this FREE STYLE brand, and which pro wrestling company first used this particular ruleset and brand name for their matches. Any ideas on that? So there were two different "boards of control" and they were absolutely unrelated, historically. I understand that. And need to go over my files and notes slowly to see if maybe I have anything on it. I didn't know that there were TWO of them. Speaking of JOE COATES, where was he located? Notts?

thank you, yes I do think so too, very likely they owned those old belts. Actually it was not that difficult to make a belt your own property, you just had to purchase it from the pro wrestling company that owned it. My understanding is that Baldwin also owned the original heavyweight Mount Evans belt, after he lost his championship claims that belt disappears once and forever. Same for Busfield. And guess what, the same for Colbeck. But Alan later let Relws use his Mount Evans belt in their promotion under the different title name, it was no longer the Biritsh Championship trophy but rather it was symbolic of either or Worlds or Euro, I cannot remember exactly what it was, someone would know better than me, and is welcome to correct me here, I would truly appreciate that. Same for the most famous WRYTON belt, it became the property of the Hussey family. And you can see it on almost all of the Rollerball Rocco pics. For me personally the most precious belt of British Pro Wrestling of the 20c was the original LORD MOUNT EVANS British Heavyweight Championship belt won, held and retired by Ernie Baldwin.

me neither, I absolutely agree with you, I also, just like you, do think that Ernest Baldwin was the very first JP's official Mount Evans style heavyweight champion of Britain. I have no doubts about it. He was Morell's neighbor, read it a proper "clan man". All according to the above logical chain of reasoning.

That is right Hack, results (whether it is a victory or a defeat) do not speak for anything. The fact that the pro wrestling workers (artists) names were repeatedly appearing on pro wrestling afiches all around the country does, it tells us the factual truth - they definitely had fans, who were there to watch them do their ring-theatre job! The idea of approaching this realm of theatre as if it is the Olympics is kind of a ridiculous nonsense to me now. The only pro wrestling statistics I currently accept would be number shows a week, or a months, by a certain performer, or how far a certain wrestler travelled, this type of things. Definitely not the "results". It is like it does matter (for theatre history researchers) how many times a year SARAH BERNHARDT played CLEOPATRA or JOAN OF ARC in those plays every year of her career since she attended the international stardom. This question would make sense to me. Because it is self explanatory of her profession, her performing quality! This is the kind of "results" I accept, they would make sense to me. And yet, some results do matter. Like those we would call the "title changes". Why? Because titles belonged to the companies it was their property. And the title holders was never a random man, but the wrestler who established strong relationships with their employer so that they trusted him enough to represent company's name everywhere...on every poster, in every newspaper, in every village and in every town where they did their wrestling showcase, call it title is a money making race car, mileage is moneys, speed is shows quality and hence more money...you want to give that car to some capable race car pilot, not to someone who would ruin your business into ashes. Hence yes, I do think that it is important to have a certain clarity on who and when held company's championships. So that we could better judge the company, the business, just the overall processes that formed and accompanied this theatre wrestling. If that makes sense.

last night watched another his fantastic movie, this time he was the main character. it was a brilliant solo by Ventura, and the movie is called CLASSE TOUS RISQUES (1960), All-Risk Class. highly recommend to those of you who love old French movies.

what a fantastic post. thank you. Thesz title existed only in his own very realm of mind. Outside that small and very isolated area...no one heard of it. I suppose he just did what others before him when they lost their American regalia. Travel to Europe (or Japan) call yourself a champ (better come with some sort of physical belt, fans love it)...and yeah obviously the matchmakers were Relws-Green, they were in charge of the international titles in JP. again thank you. made my day.

me neither. I think he never was a JP champ. fantastic we finally agreed on something. lol.

love all his movies, last week watched his 1964 movie called GREED IN THE SUN, this movie also features Jean Paul Belmondo. Highly recommend.

Thank you so very much for sharing this. Priceless material! Ok, fair enough for me, ASSIRATI DALE MARTIN'S BRITISH HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP? We are talking the early 50s.

sadly Mr Morell wasn't a fans friendly individual to be nice enough to list all his heavyweight title holders on his programmes as some other his colleagues did, just saying.

Now, I have a question. We have at least three men who reportedly held the Arena Belts and were DM British Champions. McManus - welterweight and Dale and Fields - middleweights. Is there any credible evidences that there were other DM British champs. And by saying others I specifically mean champions of some other weight divisions, lightweights let's say or heavyweights. And since Dale himself was their champ...I assume the very first champ of the DM pro wrestling company, my question is the early DM how big and influential it was in the South, are we talking late 1940s? Thank you. WHAT A THREAD AND WHAT A BELT!

ASSIRATI NEVER WAS JP's (read MOUNT EVANS STYLE) BRITISH HEAVYWIEGHT CHAMPION.

it actually had to be all chaos for it to function successfully. but for us those who research it, it sure cannot. we are trying to explore and explain WHAT WAS BEHIND THE CURTAINS in this theatre of British Pro Wrestling Stage.