You must be right there! I can't think of anyone who wrestled Les frequently enough to top Ricki. Mmm, I wonder who came second? Well, considering we reckon Logan and Kellett fought hundreds of times, if Logan claimed only 5% as victories, he would indeed top Ricki. And maybe he did defeat Les in various rematch scenarios? Your surprise is very interesting. I was similarly surprised when this came to light over 15 years ago. This tells us the promoters deliberately kept these clashes away from tv and major venues from where news could travel.

They had more than a dozen bouts: Kellett never won and lost about half the matches via KO.

I would say that it is laughably ironic that the last undisputed British Middles Champion was Jack Dale in the 12 years before the formation of Joint Promotions. That cartel was supposed to unify things but it took them 8 years to do so. His own title seemed to split apart to various claimants. And by "undisputed" I don't mean ability wise. I mean that the pre-JP promoters worked amicably together and Jack's title was sacrosanct. So maybe the JP promoters were more joint pre-1952! And more disjointed thereafter.

(Reply button not working.) Fair point, Saxonwolf but I remain surprised that "mere" results would form part of any contract. Surely it was all about money and logistics. If your theory is correct, this means all his opponents had to be 100% sure not to double-cross. So by exclusion we can perhaps see which other late fifties heavyweights were excluded as opponents: Mitchell, B. Joyce, Gwyn Davies, young Billy Robinson. Maybe these chaps were considered risky. Fascinating, a shame we shall never really know.

Studying The Ost's interesting list, it's surprising that the promoters would want the top local heavies all to lose to Thesz. Very disciplined of them. Looks like Marino's draw is the highlight for home talent. No worries about Johnny Foreigner (Singh) succumbing, but guys like Walsh and Portz who had great credibility? And no "funny" bouts with giants or masks or tag; credit to Jack Pye for being the sole villain to get a look in. Twelve years later, Jean Ferre would demolish all-comers on his first tour but then lose to almost everyone on his subsequent visits. I'm wondering if there had been a faint thought he might stay in the UK, but by the second tour it was clear he had other plans, hence his downfall,

Outstanding research Ron, the irony of such depth being that they went on to be synonymous with the east coast and Yorkshire.

Sure, the world title makes it sexy. Great bills, there 1960/61 with McManus still in a support bout and Robinson still light-heavyweight. Plenty of proper foreigners making it all the way to Barrow, too. Maybe G del Rel could offer hospitality there.

Just an aside, after we have been discussing Harry Fields all week. I see here in Barrow that Alan Colbeck was billed from Dewsbury, as was Harry. You'd have to think there was an important connection. Ron, you mention Walsh v Marino as being box office à la Pallo v McManus. Isn't it more a case of Logan v Kellett or Colbeck v McManus? Two buddies putting on their show all around the place? All the while concealing that they were wrestling each other up to three times a week. Never a mention of the regularity of their bouts in the literature. Pallo v McManus was much more of a rarity because fans knew, through tv and programme publicity, that it was a real feud. And it was indeed box office. So I am asking you what makes you believe it was such box office? Was there some kind of ongoing story or feud that fans could lock into? Or was it box office just because of the toing and froing of the belt? Judging by all your comments about access to Barrow, it would have been an ideal secluded spot for promoters to get up to all kinds of naughtiness.

Hi Ruslan, Your comments today mirror very closely the editorial we posted to launch Wrestling Heritage in March 2007. I'll re-post the closing paragraphs of that piece here in case it is of interest now: "We arrive late with our own website. Others go before us with marvellously comprehensive listings of matches and results, collated according to location, date, nationality, wrestler, pairing, tv airing – in short, statisticians are in great supply amongst wrestling fans. We thank and value our quantitatively-minded colleagues, their offerings in some cases form the basis of our observations, whilst at the same time questioning their angle of focusing on results when these results had very little competitive foundation, or none at all. We comment on and record the halcyon days, defined as you wish, perhaps equating to the first 25 years of Her Majesty’s reign, but focusing more personally, and we hope appreciatively, on the combined company effort that went into each and every wrestling show to give it balance and variety, forsaking all aspects of competitive superiority, even ability, in the interest of providing all-round entertainment. The most mystifying aspect of all is perhaps that a handful of aged fans are still able to recall and recount with such detail and dedication the events of decades gone by. Now we want to analyse what we were seeing, we want to dissect the goings on that captivated us, and we want to explore the business organogram that determined who were the victors and losers, the names and the nameless, in the magnificent uncompetitive sport or spectacle that was professional wrestling. Do not consult us for career records or championship histories. Look elsewhere for details of unbeaten runs and invincibility of all kinds. But stay a while with us here to glory in the performance of each and every wrestler, from the least until the lowest, to see how the collaboration worked and to try to fathom out what non-ability based hierarchy determined poster inches, championship status and regular televised appearances. We offer a modern-day sociological and business perspective on what was a hugely popular spectator sport nationwide." :

Bernard! Norman!

That's precisely what I said, Hack. A Dale Martin boy for a couple of years only for his title to be a victim of Dale Martin's entry into Joint Promotions. Thanks for rewording it. Where you can ADD something will be by sharing with us how he fared when back in Yorkshire. Was he embraced by Norman Morrell - or had his Brixton links tarnished him?

Hi Bernard "...we have to deduce that Harry Fields was an out and out Dale Martin wrestler..." This is big-time publicity from Dale Martin. With loads of wrestlers to choose from, why would they select one that was infrequently on Dale Martin bills? That's my deduction. I realise he was from Yorkshire. But apart from being on the flyer, Jack Dale also gave him his belt. It would be amazing if Jack gave him his belt only for Harry to wrestle extensively outside the promotion. Maybe Jack specifically wanted a non-Southerner to make it look truly national. Not sure how long Harry lasted as a DM golden boy, as I say, I haven't followed him. But at least in 1952 he seems to have been one. And I agree with you, he must have been based in the Brixton area at that time. Actually, now I have a further idea to explain it. So in 1952 Harry was the golden boy and new champion. But in 1953, newbie JP member Dale Martin had to acknowledge the existing JP champions and, just maybe, Hard-done-by Harry had to return to Dewsbury beltless. The first Joint Promotions martyr!

Mrs Kwango clearly got around with one son from West Africa and another from The West Indies. Looks like the mysterious Major was logistics manager, as we would say today. Somebody had to be, so makes sense. I love what appears to be a definitive list of venues. Shrewsbury is very far flung and surprises me. So, by exclusion, we can see major venues that bit and became Dale Martin strongholds: Brighton, Hastings, Portsmouth, Folkestone, Bognor, Plymouth, Bournemouth, Weymouth, Dunstable, Hemel Hempstead and many more. However, I'm not sure how London venues fit into the list. I see Watford and Croydon, not at all central, and of course Beckenham-by-Brixton. Looks like they had not had any great success in the capital so they must really have motored to bag Kingston, RAH, Seymour Hall, Wembley, Streatham and the rest. I must confess I usually gloss over Harry Fields and have not examined his career much. But it looks like we now see the exact template for 25 years later when another blond youngster claimed McManus's long-standing belt, Mal Sanders. Given this push, we have to deduce that Harry Fields was an out and out Dale Martin wrestler. Conspicuous by their absence from inclusion are the Speed Wizard and Marino.

Ruslan:  "It just cannot be all chaos." SWEEEET. Sounds like the meaning of life. But we are discussing something more important than the meaning of life here.

I don't participate in this because, sorry, I think it's a waste of time. It's like tracing who played Lady Bracknell in various theatres to work out who was the real Lady Bracknell.

Good, we are making progress and agreeing a bit. Of course we are not obliged to agree 100%, and only by expressing ourselves fully will we ever make progress. In fairness to myself, I always separated Bert Royal out as active all over the South but in no way a DM wrestler. Put simply, all the others lived in London or the suburbs. And by 1969, the only two "old" champions were very inactive and unco-operatively hogging their belts. Maybe a clearer way of identifying what I mean is through the opposite; looking at those fifties champions. Dempsey in fairness seemed to wrestle a lot in the South, at least on big bills. Maybe I am thinking too wishfully that his coverage was on a scale with Bert Royal's? But the others seemed to be northerners who did their absolute minimums in the South, though B. Joyce did have some flurries. So we agree on the facts, the changes. But I disagree still about the cause when you write: "I don't see it as a powershift, more natural evolution." Natural evolution would have meant proper northern "shooters" (or whatever) like Naylor and Martinelli and Ray Glendenning would have become long-term seventies champions; but they didn't get a look in. The reason I believe in the Powershift is that there was so much other evidence of Dale Martin, through Mick McManus as the outward sign, wielding power in other ways. His outrageous number of tv appearances, improbable claiming of the European title and holding onto it through his fifties, his part in creating the Pallo feud, his non-wrestling tv work, his top-billing nationwide - always the big name. It just all adds up. I can't think of any other wrestler who exuded so much power. Oh, add to that another sure sign - a lot of wrestlers didn't like him (by no means a majority, though.) And I detect this shift to be from early 1961. This fits in also with others' comments. So the question I suppose I am asking myself is: what precisely happened in late 1960? We did a great job together some years ago dissecting the final months of Paul Lincoln Promotions before the merger/takeover/sellout. This is a greater challenge, being even further back, but late 1960 does interest me.

After 1965, Hack? That's a bit harsh, don't you think? For me there were ten or twelve more very good years in general, with only the occasional ridiculous elements (Catweazle, 1972.) I can't remember before 1965 but I do remember loads of men crowded around our tv to see The Outlaw against Steve Viedor in November 1965. That was all very serious, very believable, and absolutely sensational. Strangely, albeit irrelevant, I remember they all wanted to stay to see My Three Sons after the wrestling. When Hack and I were interviewed for the BBC show, we were filmed speaking for well over three hours and the BBC selected just a few snippets, obviously out of our flowing contexts. But it was all right. Professor Tom here, you may be interested to know, filmed us for over 100 minutes. He must have had a right time editing out all our references to the memorabilia we referenced and displayed. Listening to the podcast, you can't tell that we were all looking at each other, I believe. Tom still holds out hope of sharing the whole 100 minutes on film. So if he does ever manage to share this, it would just about equate to the second instalment that some Members have requested.

Great analytical stuff, Ruslan. I particularly agree with your factual approach: "Back To Riley. ..... he was an essential and probably the most important and influential member of it since its very foundation. It was actually him who headed the Board of Control which literally was in charge of the reading of the rules of the game and etc how to judge this or that if it occurs in the course of the match. He was a head judge in this particular form of pro wrestling called Lord Mount Evans Style. It is a fact. Yes, there definitely was a shift in the JPs politics." and especially; "But the fact still is - to be the JP British Champ you almost certainly had to represent the Riley school. Late 50s early 60s I am talking." And it is precisely that end of period that interests me and how such a total change to what had seemed a cast-in-stone status quo came to pass, and how those coveted titles slipped from Morrell's and Riley's grasp.

"You're seriously suggesting Mick would double-cross to get a title? McManus was the ultimate professional and would never do this." Of course not. Get real! The beauty of what I am explaining to you, Hack, is that Mick had the authority, power, to claim that title and Norman had to swallow handing him the belt on a plate on his own bill, standing helplessly by. Do you seriously think at 49 and out of condition Mick had the ability to double-cross anyone? Morrell was obliged to appease. Hope Ruslan can do his forensics on this: Hack, you are descending into childish personal comments when I started this thread to to examine the really rather important subject of the promotional powershift. I listed various facts yet you say there is no evidence of it. You seem to be in denial. The irony is, I am not even a big McManus fan, I saw him wrestle far too often and became too aware, and then critical, of his show. Funnily enough, it was one of the last times that I saw him live, against Breaks at the Albert Hall, that he really astounded me in his versatility. I just want to work out how this undeniable major Powershift came about in an accurate impartial manner. Let me try to summarise the matter again. Dale Martin was always the BIGGEST promoter within Joint Promotions, covering more than half the country. But in the fifties, it was they who had to appease the board in Leeds. An outward sign we see of this is that they had no British title holders. Dale Martin punched below its weight. Then, through the sixties, the whole thing changed, judging again by the outward sign of British title holders. Dale Martin started to dominate Joint Promotions. The ownership of Dale Martin is irrelevant. We don't even know the true extent of McManus's role. ("Matchmaker" is not a valid description.) Irrespective of the changing ownership of Dale Martin, Dale Martin Promotions flourished. And they started to flourish spectacularly from the time when McManus, very suddenly, exploded onto the tv scene, culminating in his final domination of the listing on this site of tv appearances. I happen not to think this is a coincidence and want to explore the connection (in a grown up way, if possible.) Dale Martin Promotions existed very successfully well into the eighties. I do think two other Yorkshiremen are interesting in this Powershift. Credit to Max Crabtree: he seemed to manage McManus effectively as his talent. But isn't it likely that it was McManus himself who told Max he fancied unmasking Kung Fu on tv and tagging against Nagasaki at the Albert Hall? Again, we don't know exactly. But Les Kellett also comes into it. We know he had a major falling out with Morrell's MC at about the time of the Preston-McManus match. What happens next? He starts appearing with far greater regularity on Dale Martin bills. In fact, when I saw him wrestle McManus live in 1968, I wasn't aware that this was part of a two-year "feud." (Feud being the wrong word, of course. They just trotted out their bout inconclusively all over the South.) Les and Mick cosied up to each other big time. Les had all the work he could handle, opponents of his choice, so important for his show. Mick had a sour former righthand man of Morrell, as Bernard's memories confirm, as his new best buddy and probably extracted with glee all information he could from Les about Morrell's set up. Yes, the European and World titles were local. Local to UK as I explained. McManus knew that it was the British titles that meant so very much to Morrell; and so he proceeded to relieve Morrell of these titles - with great success. This is the outward sign of this major Powershift. It may very well be that the January 1967 double-cross by Peter Preston was provoked by Dale-Martin (McManus) having started his title acquisitions in the preceding years. There was great stealth in the way Dale Martin operated at this time. We see this also in the sudden victory over Paul Lincoln Promotions at the end of 1965, as a result of which Dale Martin became even greater in size. And as we know from the autumn 1965 Southend war with Lincoln, right down to blocking poor Graham's bill by leaving him without a ring, Dale Martin could be absolutely ruthless.